Nigel Farage

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What the UKIP vote represents is Tory voters voting for a more right wing flavour of their own ideals. I expect a lurch right by the Tories following these elections.

That should be music to the ears of John Redwood..

 

[bb21]

It's all well and good dismissing UKIP as racist, but it's not actually going to make a difference. UKIP have one policy, and that policy resonates with the real man on the street - Europe has gone too far and something needs to be done.

The problem with Europe is that we will never quit. The big businesses simply will not allow that to happen.

I think it would be more productive to shift the focus away from trying to get out of Europe, but more towards how to gain more leverage in the decision making process.

 

[Oswyntail]

...What the UKIP vote represents is Tory voters voting for a more right wing flavour of their own ideals.

Could be better put. More, "right-wing Tory voters voting for a party reflecting their ideals (to an extent)". Most Tory voters - and the party itself - are fairly centrist.

I expect a lurch right by the Tories following these elections.

I expect a period where every little flicker from the Conservatives is portrayed by the Labour Party and the anti-coalition press as "a lurch to the right".
A party cannot really be considered as a serious contender until it has a full range of costed policies across the board, open to scrutiny. This is why we cannot tell (yet) whether UKIP, or even Labour, will be serious contenders at the next General Election.

 

[DarloRich]

Could be better put. More, "right-wing Tory voters voting for a party reflecting their ideals (to an extent)". Most Tory voters - and the party itself - are fairly centrist.I expect a period where every little flicker from the Conservatives is portrayed by the Labour Party and the anti-coalition press as "a lurch to the right".
A party cannot really be considered as a serious contender until it has a full range of costed policies across the board, open to scrutiny. This is why we cannot tell (yet) whether UKIP, or even Labour, will be serious contenders at the next General Election.

I expect a lurch to the right because they need to reconnect with their voters who have voted for a more right wing party!

I dont understand your attempts to link this to something to do with Labour. The majority of UKIP voters are disenfranchised Tories! Even Conservative Central Office have said UKIP split the Conservative vote allowing Labour to make gains because their vote held up.

 

[jon0844]

It's more a case of even Labour not yet having given any concrete plans on what they'd do (or have done) to get out of our situation.

That said, I do at least believe that they could and will if they have to. Something that I am not sure UKIP are in a position to do.

 

[RPM]

I have to concede that on a human, non-political level, Farage seems like a likeable chap. However, politically I am a million miles away from him. I particularly detest the way his party is playing on the baser instincts of the population - specifically xenophobic, crypto-racist demonization of immigrants and foreigners as the scapegoat for all the failings of our society. It is easy to chase the ****wit vote at this stage, but if they gain some vestige of power then they will have to explain their position on this more carefully, and that will be their downfall. Vague soundbites are easy, but they won’t be able to translate that into acceptable policy.
Sadly a UKIP councillor won in my area. I attribute that mainly to their unequivocal opposition to HS2. (I live right on the phase 1 route). This of course is a blatant case of saying anything to get elected. In 2010 they promoted high speed rail in their manifesto, to an extent that makes HS2 look very modest.
Overall though I welcome UKIP as a political force for tactical reasons – they split the Tory/right wing vote and I thank them for that.

 

[MattRobinson]

UKIP are a one policy party: get out of Europe. But the wish to get out of Europe is odd because there's actually a lot of things that Europe has done for us. An example would be European standards. These make product design much simpler and thus making products cheaper and guarantee that if you were to buy something in any part of Europe it is as safe as any other part.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Metrailway]

Farage himself is clearly a cardboard cut-out, it's painfully obvious. He is trying to portray himself as in touch with the ordinary man and it failed miserably

I disagree - he is a bit like Boris Johnson. Everyone knows that Boris is posh and rich, yet traditionally Labour London voted him in twice! Farage in a similar vein doesn't try to hide his well off background. This is striking when compared to Cameron, Miliband, Clegg etc, all who try to play down their rich roots and sell themselves as 'ordinary'. Just look at Osborne's terrible attempt at a 'common' accent recently.

Politics to most people is very grey and boring (not to me - I'm a political anorak!). Mr Farage and Mr Johnson add a bit of colour to the proceedings - both have a good sense of humour, which is rare in politicians as politics is naturally very serious. Most people wouldn't mind having a pint with Farage. They certainly won't have a pint with the other party leaders.

I'm pretty certain that UKIP will win the 2014 European elections. It is hard to know how well UKIP will do in 2015, however. Due to our First Past the Post system, you can have 25% of the national vote and not have a MP. I predict that UKIP will have a higher share of the popular vote than the Liberal Democrats but they will not win a similar number of seats to the Lib Dems. IMHO, it would be a success for UKIP if they win a couple of seats at Westminster.

 

[transmanche]

Why do you think they harvested so many votes in yesterdays Local Elections if voters were so concerned about this ?

Simple. The Tories and their friends in the right-wing press have spent the past few years peddling stories which demonise immigrants and the EU, in the hope that it would swing voters to the Tories. But it's backfired on them, as those who swallowed the nonsense voted UKIP instead.

I think if people had actually bothered to find out what UKIP's policies are, the majority of them would not have voted for Nige & Co.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think if people had actually bothered to find out what UKIP's policies are, the majority of them would not have voted for Nige & Co.

Hand on heart, I ask what minuscule percentage of the current British electorate would even bother to make the effort to find out what ANY of the parties stood for. Political information apathy is as rife as ever as it has been for many years now.

Let us not forget that these elections were for the shire counties, whereas there are the matters that concern the large conurbation areas who were not involved in this particular election, where there is a far more hidebound and blinkered approach to politics et al.

 

[DarloRich]

It's more a case of even Labour not yet having given any concrete plans on what they'd do (or have done) to get out of our situation.

That said, I do at least believe that they could and will if they have to. Something that I am not sure UKIP are in a position to do.

I agree, definitive policies are needed from the the Labour party.

However, recent political history shows that those in opposition say as little as possible about their policies and much more about how poor the policies of the government are!

By all means attack the incumbent but try and highlight how your party would be better by evidence of your policies.

As Paul says these were shire elections which tend to see the return of Conservative candidates by an essential C/conservative electorate. I think where i used to live in North Yorkshire they assumed a vote for anyone other then the Conservatives as a mistake and counted it as Tory anyway!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

To put matters in some perspective, now that the votes are all counted, from the 34 councils that went to the polls, the final results show the control of these as:-

18 Conservative
3 Labour
13 No overall control
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Politics to most people is very grey and boring (not to me - I'm a political anorak!). Mr Farage and Mr Johnson add a bit of colour to the proceedings - both have a good sense of humour, which is rare in politicians as politics is naturally very serious.

One of the drawbacks of the current Labour shadow front-bench is a noted lack of charisma. I watched Maria Eagle being interviewed on television this morning where she said two thirds of the electorate did not bother to turn out to vote in these shire elections and your term "grey and very boring" has always applied to her. I have even heard it said that Ed Miliband reminded someone of the male lead character in the American sitcom "Everybody loves Raymond". Where are those old-style Labour stalwart types such as Bessie Braddock when Labour needs personalities to aid their political image.

 

[yorksrob]

One doesn't need the input of the right wing press peddling nonsense to see not only the pernicious effect that the EU has had on democracy, but also the disastrous effects on the economies of member states. I find it curious that those who criticise Maggie Thatcher (quite rightly IMO) for the destructive way in which her policies have lain waste to vast areas of the North of England seem so forgiving of an institution wreaking similar havoc across entire nations, for no reason other than its own self aggrandisement.


I'm not likely to vote UKIP anytime soon, however I, like I suspect many people, am not going to be blinded to the shortcomings of the EU out of woolly internationalism.

 

[Masbroughlad]

IMHO he is a narrow minded individual who would lurch the country dangerously to the far right. And if we pull out of Europe that would be a sorry day for us in the UK.

 

[WestCoast]

One doesn't need the input of the right wing press peddling nonsense to see not only the pernicious effect that the EU has had on democracy, but also the disastrous effects on the economies of member states..

Of course, that's if you believe that the Westminster model with FPTP voting was a bastion of democratic representation for the British people in the first place. I find it hard to argue against the fact that sovereignty has been eroded however, whether that's a good or a bad thing for the people.

The EU does often come out with nonsense and it's no doubt a bloated organisation, but on many occasions they have taken a defense stand against our Government's erosion of civil liberties (e.g. the UK Gov. requirement to screen selected air passengers using ionizing X-rays, banned by the EU).

As for the economic argument, I think the member states have a lot to say about that. The states that are in deep financial trouble are the ones that desperately fought to enter the Euro (allegedly 'cooking the books' in some cases) and then increased public spending like there was no tomorrow when they had access to cheaper lending. Look at all the shiny infrastructure in Spain; loans and grants went a long way to funding all that. If you look at the supposedly poorer newer Eastern European states such as Poland and the Czech Republic, they haven't gone on a mad spending spree. They have retained their currencies and are preferring slower investment and this strategy is working - they don't require large bailouts.

The income gap in the EU is of course the main reason for UKIP's success, without that there would be significantly less working immigrants from the 2004 EU States. Stirring up bad feeling about immigration creates support. If the Labour Government of the day had chosen to restrict workers from the new EU states (like EVERY other EU state bar Ireland and Sweden chose to do) where would UKIP be I wonder?

 

[yorksrob]

I don't entirely buy the idea that the Southern Europpean states are solely to blame for their current situation. Yes, they made the decision to borrow money at an unsustainable level, but the fact remains that many countries get caught out by borrowing too much, but the difference here is that they are locked into an unsustainably strong currency which prevents them from exporting more to rectify the situation. By a similar token, some Northern countries have done well out of being locked into a weaker currency, so I would say they were complicit in the delusion that one currency can fit so many disparate economies.

With regard to Westminster, it may not be a paragon of democracy, but it is more democratic than than the EU and yes, I do believe that this country should be in charge of its own laws. It's also worth noting that that Westminster, in the form of the House of Lords has probably done more to protect civil liberties than here than the EU.

 

[WestCoast]

don't entirely buy the idea that the Southern Eurppean states are solely to blame for their current situation. Yes, they made the decision to borrow money at an unsustainable level, but the fact remains that many countries get caught out by borrowing too much, but the difference here is that theu are locked into an unsustainably strong currency which prevents them from exporting more to rectify the situation.

By a similar token, some Northern countries have done well out of being locked into a weaker currecy, so I would say they were complicit in the delusion that one currency can fit so many diaparate economies.

Hindsight is of course a wonderful thing from all perspectives. Blame can be proportioned to many sides. However, with Euro was very much a case of "me too" among the Mediterranean Countries, the currency union being seen as a matter of prestige rather than from a more rational economic standpoint. Yes, the Northern European countries have benefited from their exports being made cheaper, thus boosting their economy.

However, one must consider that in the early 2000s Germany was in slight recession and the Med. Countries were on the up. Living standards in many parts of Spain and Italy were rising up and often exceeding those found in the supposedly richer lands further north (e.g. in the former East Germany). The economic outlook seemed to be more or less positive for all. It has never been a case of "richer North" vs. "poorer South", it's about financial management.

It's also worth noting that that Westminster, in the form of the House of Lords has probably done more to protect civil liberties than here than the EU.

That may be the case, but it doesn't alter my view that I have supported a number of judgements made by the EU which has forced UK legislation change. Not all of course, but I disagree with the right-wing viewpoint that Brussels is a force of evil seeking to destroy the country. A matter further complicated by the fact that the Daily Mail readership does not understand the significant difference between the EU and the European Court of Human Rights.

 

[yorksrob]

They didn't need hindsight to know that the single currency might be a step too far including many here and in Denmark. Chancellor Kohl admitted as much in his autobiography that he had to strong arm the German population into giving up their beloved Deutch Mark, but since when have triffling issues such as democracy and economic reality been allowed to get in the way of ever closer union.

With regard to the courts, yes, sometimes they will make decisions I agree with and sometimes they won't, just like sometimes the EU will occasionally turn out a decision I agree with, however, as a democrat, I see no fundamental reason why the British people cannot be trusted to govern their own affairs.

 

[richw]

Regarding Europe, I stumbled across an article early in the year, well before the UKIP debate, stating that in 2011 England and Wales paid in 13.7bn Euros, receiving only 3.4bn Euros out. How can this even be slightly positive for our economy?

 

[Oswyntail]

I expect a lurch to the right because they need to reconnect with their voters who have voted for a more right wing party!

By that logic, you would expect to see the same from Labour, Lib Dems, Greens..... OK, so they didn't lose as much of the vote, but, mid-term, they would have expected to pick up votes, not hold steady.

I dont understand your attempts to link this to something to do with Labour.

Labour, like UKIP, are benefiting (as allopposition parties do) from being able to say "The Government is wrong", without offering their own alternative. It is only when those alternatives are put before the public can they be assessed as to whether they are realistic, and offer the party a chance of being elected.

The majority of UKIP voters are disenfranchised Tories!

I think you mean "disenchanted". But you (and the media pundits) can't have things both ways. Either the current government is an idealogically far right-wing bunch, out to destroy the workers for the benefit of their pals in the counting houses (in which case, what does that make UKIP?), or (as I believe) the current government is, in fact, more centrist than the media lead us to believe, and UKIP are largely filled with the swivel-eyed members who would damage any party, together with the traditional mid-term protest vote.

Even Conservative Central Office have said UKIP split the Conservative vote allowing Labour to make gains because their vote held up.

Absolutely. But is that any more than would have been expected? Had UKIP not existed, would there have been many Labour gains? I suspect not, and that must make them very worried. Even in Doncaster (about as Labour a territory as you can find), the Mayoral vote was between Labour and the incumbent who had proved damagingly eccentric from the very start, and was a Labour victory only by a handful of votes.
Until UKIP come up with a coherent set of policies, it is exceedingly premature to draw any conclusions about future elections.

 

[transmanche]

Hand on heart, I ask what minuscule percentage of the current British electorate would even bother to make the effort to find out what ANY of the parties stood for.

I think most people have a rough idea of what the big political parties are for. But only know what UKIP are against.

Political information apathy is as rife as ever as it has been for many years now.

I'd say it's the worst it's been since (before) the introduction of universal suffrage.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

On the morning after the shire elections, the Conservative chairman Grant Shapps appeared on breakfast television saying that "we must learn what the electorate expect from us", then had the temerity to hold forth on "what the electorate expects us to do" by trotting out exactly the same policies they currently espouse. Some people either never listen....or more likely totally ignore the "message from electorate"...

 

[SS4]

To put matters in some perspective, now that the votes are all counted, from the 34 councils that went to the polls, the final results show the control of these as:-

18 Conservative
3 Labour
13 No overall control

Could that be because a lot of local authorities only elect a portion of their councillors at any given time? So what may have been 18 Conservative councils would always have been 18 Conservative councils because the number of seats up for grabs would not change the majority.

One of the drawbacks of the current Labour shadow front-bench is a noted lack of charisma. I watched Maria Eagle being interviewed on television this morning where she said two thirds of the electorate did not bother to turn out to vote in these shire elections and your term "grey and very boring" has always applied to her. I have even heard it said that Ed Miliband reminded someone of the male lead character in the American sitcom "Everybody loves Raymond". Where are those old-style Labour stalwart types such as Bessie Braddock when Labour needs personalities to aid their political image.

Seems pretty sad that politicians need charisma although it's certainly true that they do.

IMHO he is a narrow minded individual who would lurch the country dangerously to the far right. And if we pull out of Europe that would be a sorry day for us in the UK.

I concur, it's astonishing to me just how many major media outlets hate Europe and the EU. Stories about wonky bananas make it but stories about holding onto DNA samples from people acquitted or not charged are not S. AND MARPER v. THE UNITED KINGDOM . Did you know the EU regulates airlines and is the source of protection if your flight is delayed/cancelled? Your cheaper calls abroad are also thanks to the EU

 

[Butts]

As the turnouts are so low (particularly local / euro ballots) perhaps we get the Politicians we deserve

 

[SS4]

As the turnouts are so low (particularly local / euro ballots) perhaps we get the Politicians we deserve

From what I've seen local elections are voted along the same way as national ones and the parties pander to this. We got party political broadcasts in Birmingham despite not going to the polls although it's possible other local authorities in the broadcast area did so that'll be ok.

 

[Butts]

From what I've seen local elections are voted along the same way as national ones and the parties pander to this. We got party political broadcasts in Birmingham despite not going to the polls although it's possible other local authorities in the broadcast area did so that'll be ok.

Whilst generally true there are areas of the Country that still have quite a few "Independents" - indeed I believe they control a few Councils.

I wonder if the rest of the Country would be better served if there was a similar balance of power

 

[12CSVT]

Could one of the reasons for UKIP's strong showing in the council elections be the amount of coverage they get in the press.

I remember a few years ago there was another anti EU party (No to EU) fielding candidates in elections. Whilst UKIP were getting plenty of publicity in the press, No to EU were hardly even mentioned by the same press.

 

[Butts]

Could one of the reasons for UKIP's strong showing in the council elections be the amount of coverage they get in the press.

I remember a few years ago there was another anti EU party (No to EU) fielding candidates in elections. Whilst UKIP were getting plenty of publicity in the press, No to EU were hardly even mentioned by the same press.

Farage like him or loathe him is probably the difference

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I see that Theresa May has again reiterated that there will be no referendum on membership of the European Community prior to the holding of the next General Election.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
During the run in to these elections, I noted the new " buzz-word" of the television electoral "pundits" was the term "seed change". I wonder how many of them fully understand the historical derivation of this phrase. Perhaps they may consider this point the next time they go sailing on "a raft of measures" or "painting a picture" of the events surrounding them...

 

[Seacook]

During the run in to these elections, I noted the new " buzz-word" of the television electoral "pundits" was the term "seed change". I wonder how many of them fully understand the historical derivation of this phrase. Perhaps they may consider this point the next time they go sailing on "a raft of measures" or "painting a picture" of the events surrounding them...

Seed change? That's a new one on me - I'm familiar with 'sea change', of course. Is this another minor alteration like 'damp squid' instead of 'damp squib'?

Media clichés often fail to make sense - meteoric rise is a familiar enough term even though meteors do not rise.