Nexus / Metro refund

[ModernRailways]

Hi all,

Just after some quick advice on what you think.

So, I went to purchase my annual ticket from the ticket machine, however because my Smart Card expired before the annual ticket would expire (my smart card expires in September 2014, annual pass would expire in July 2015) I received an error. So I went to the Help Point to see what Metro control would say, and we couldn't understand each other (this issue has been ignored by everyone, unsurprisingly). In the end, I opted to purchase a DaySaver so I could undertake my journey and then just request a refund later because the problem was with the smart card system.

Anyway, I send an email to Metro complaining about the situation and they come back with a response basically telling me I can only get my pass done at a travel shop and if I want a refund I must get a comments form and use that. So I fill in the form explaining the situation and how I was unable to purchase the ticket I wanted because the machine was faulty (the error it gave was something 'Shell not valid past ticket expiry').

Jump to now, about 3 weeks after my request I get an email saying it was declined because the issue was my fault. I send a reply, admittedly it was rather ranty, and then 3 hours later receive a phone call. The women on the phone kept reiterating that this was my fault and that I had to purchase a ticket to travel, after trying to explain that I tried to purchase my ticket but was unable so had to settle for a different option she just repeated herself. I then started asking her how I was supposed to know this would occur, and why they have been telling me to use a ticket machine to update my pass when I'm not actually able too. I then mentioned the fact the Help Point wasn't working properly to which she remained silent. After about 10 seconds of silence I said 'Hello' to which she said 'Hello, yeah, I'm still here'.

She clearly didn't care since she ignored any points I made and so I've decided to escalate it to passenger focus although I hold little hope with them doing anything. What would users here opinions be on the situation? To me, I tried to purchase a ticket but was unsuccessful because of a fault and as a result, to undertake my journey, I had to pay for a more expensive option because the system doesn't work as it should and so I'm rightfully requesting a refund for the extra expense.

I've spoken to multiple people, around 5 of whom actually work for Metro and they have all said that I should be given a refund because the whole smart card system is a joke but Nexus are just in their own little world thinking it's all fine - I thought it was getting better but these staff have actually said it's getting worse...

 

[cuccir]

Tyne & Wear Public Transport Users' Group (http://www.twptug.org.uk/) may be interested in this.

 

[ModernRailways]

Tyne & Wear Public Transport Users' Group (http://www.twptug.org.uk/) may be interested in this.

Completely forgot about them! Thanks

 

[Olympian]

...(the error it gave was something 'Shell not valid past ticket expiry')...

This refers to the ITSO Shell on the card which contains the card expiry date along with any products loaded onto it. The ITSO specification understandably doesn't allow products on the card to have validity beyond the Shell (card) expiry date, hence the ticket machine correctly rejects this although quoting ITSO terms (eg Shell) in messages to passengers clearly isn't very good!

Part of the stupidity here is that cards have been issued with such short expiry dates - although it's always going to be an issue when the expiry date is less than a year away if you can still purchase annual tickets, why oh why haven't they issued them for perhaps 7 or 10 years to avoid problems like you've had or at least made sure they can be renewed far enough in advance?

 

[Mojo]

Why do such cards have an expiry date at all?

 

[ModernRailways]

This refers to the ITSO Shell on the card which contains the card expiry date along with any products loaded onto it. The ITSO specification understandably doesn't allow products on the card to have validity beyond the Shell (card) expiry date, hence the ticket machine correctly rejects this although quoting ITSO terms (eg Shell) in messages to passengers clearly isn't very good!

Part of the stupidity here is that cards have been issued with such short expiry dates - although it's always going to be an issue when the expiry date is less than a year away if you can still purchase annual tickets, why oh why haven't they issued them for perhaps 7 or 10 years to avoid problems like you've had or at least made sure they can be renewed far enough in advance?

I figured that was the problem after I'd bought my ticket which was why I immediately went to a travelshop - had I not of figured that out I would have been paying for a weeks extra worth of travel, because I would have been waiting for a response from Nexus.

And if this is part of ITSO itself and not something that can be easily fixed I've been lied to - again. According to the women I spoke to on the phone, it would all be sorted in the next year or so. I knew it would take longer, if they bothered at all. I can see this becoming a huge problem though, especially in 2018 when all the CT pass holders rush to the ticket machines to buy a Gold Card only to be given an error.



Quick update: Heard back from Passenger Focus and the person there has told me 'I have reviewed your email this morning and feel that I have sufficient information with which to begin our appeals process'. So it seems that I have Passenger Focus on side at least! Thankfully

 

[Olympian]

And if this is part of ITSO itself and not something that can be easily fixed I've been lied to - again. According to the women I spoke to on the phone, it would all be sorted in the next year or so. I knew it would take longer, if they bothered at all. I can see this becoming a huge problem though, especially in 2018 when all the CT pass holders rush to the ticket machines to buy a Gold Card only to be given an error.

CT pass holders will indeed also have the same problem if they try to buy a product that expires after their cards do. Yes this restriction is part of the ITSO specification, but logically no smart card system is going to allow a product to be loaded onto a card where the product has validity beyond the expiry date of the card itself as customers would then complain that their product stopped working prematurely. This seems to be all the fault of Nexus for not issuing cards with long enough expiry dates, and/or not renewing them soon enough, not the ITSO specification.

 

[Deerfold]

CT pass holders will indeed also have the same problem if they try to buy a product that expires after their cards do. Yes this restriction is part of the ITSO specification, but logically no smart card system is going to allow a product to be loaded onto a card where the product has validity beyond the expiry date of the card itself as customers would then complain that their product stopped working prematurely. This seems to be all the fault of Nexus for not issuing cards with long enough expiry dates, and/or not renewing them soon enough, not the ITSO specification.

Why do cards have an expiry date at all (to echo Mojo's unanswered question)?

 

[142094]

You need to talk to Nexus and not DB as it is an issue with their systems - need to remember that everything to do with ticketing including ticket machines, barriers and smartcards are dealt with by Nexus.

Which comments form did you fill in? There are two types - the Metro one and a Nexus one. Both go to different addresses so you need to be filling in (or sending a letter) to the Nexus House address.

 

[island]

Why do cards have an expiry date at all (to echo Mojo's unanswered question)?

One potential reason might be to do with a desire to update the card software from time to time and therefore ensure very old cards which might not be capable of supporting same go out of circulation.

 

[ModernRailways]

You need to talk to Nexus and not DB as it is an issue with their systems - need to remember that everything to do with ticketing including ticket machines, barriers and smartcards are dealt with by Nexus.

Which comments form did you fill in? There are two types - the Metro one and a Nexus one. Both go to different addresses so you need to be filling in (or sending a letter) to the Nexus House address.

I originally emailed Metro who in their response told me to fill in the customer comments form from a Travelshop to request a refund for the ticket. I wasn't told which one, but it was a Metro form. I'm guessing it got passed over to Nexus though because of the reason, as I received a letter/email response from Nexus and not Metro. Then I emailed back Nexus and 2 hours later got a phone call from a deputy manager from Nexus who ignored me and kept repeating herself.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why do cards have an expiry date at all (to echo Mojo's unanswered question)?

I can kind of understand why a CT pass would need to have an expiry date as not all areas of the country have ITSO readers. But, in my view, that could be cancelled out by the fact that instead of giving users a new card every 5 years or whatever it is giving them a piece of card with holograms, watermarks etc. on to keep with their pass.

However, for normal Pop cards their is no point other Nexus just wasting more money. We'll keep that for a different topic though

 

[ModernRailways]

Just to give a quick update since I just remembered this.

I'm yet to hear any further update, although the women I spoke to at Passenger Focus said if she doesn't hear anything she will get back in touch on the 29th September.

 

[ModernRailways]

I contacted Passenger Focus asking them if they had any update, but they haven't been able to get in touch with Nexus.

Not very good when the only Railway complaints team can simply be ignored by the TOCs and no fine etc. is given to the TOCs for not responding.

We really need a better complaints division that actually has some clout!

 

[bb21]

Does that mean they have not heard back from Nexus or that they haven't yet bothered to get in touch with them?

 

[185]

We really need a better complaints division that actually has some clout!

Some of us were discussing something similar to this earlier - namely, which organisation watches over the PTE's behaviour when the subject is not heavy rail (which could be ORR). Surely as a local authority Quango, the PTEs must answer to one of the ombudsmen for matters relating to non-rail matters, ie- for bus / light rail / ferries / tunnels -related decisions and policy matters.

 

[ModernRailways]

Does that mean they have not heard back from Nexus or that they haven't yet bothered to get in touch with them?

They haven't heard back.

This was their response when I chased it up with them.

I have, as yet, not had a full and final response from Tyne and Wear Metro. I have been chasing this with them, and will continue to do so. As soon as I receive a response from them, I will contact you again.

 

[DelayRepay]

Out of interest how much is the refund you're owed?

It does surprise me when companies will happily spend far more (in man hours and administration) arguing with a customer, when the amount involved is probably quite trivial and the matter could be resolved quite easily.

Not suggesting they should pay out automatic refunds without any investigation, but it does seem a waste of everyone's time to argue about this when you're in the right and correcting the situation can be done at low cost to Nexus.

 

[ModernRailways]

Out of interest how much is the refund you're owed?

It does surprise me when companies will happily spend far more (in man hours and administration) arguing with a customer, when the amount involved is probably quite trivial and the matter could be resolved quite easily.

Not suggesting they should pay out automatic refunds without any investigation, but it does seem a waste of everyone's time to argue about this when you're in the right and correcting the situation can be done at low cost to Nexus.

£3.60

So they'll have likely spent more refusing to send it.

 

[Wolfie]

£3.60

So they'll have likely spent more refusing to send it.

Hum, except for two factors:
a Having set a precedent for giving a refund in such circumstances they will have to do so for every occurence;
b Having admitted that there is a fault with their system they will actually have to fix it.

Far easier and cheaper to argue that they are right and you are wrong and hope you go away.....

 

[Tetchytyke]

IIRC Nexus are responsible for the smart ticketing, not DB Regio. Nexus are a local authority organisation. Therefore I'd be inclined to think that the Local Authority Ombudsman could look at complaints about them- they will deal with complaints about the transport department of a council- so you might want to speak to them.

Passenger Focus are easily ignored, the Local Authority Ombudsman less so.

 

[ModernRailways]

Hum, except for two factors:
a Having set a precedent for giving a refund in such circumstances they will have to do so for every occurence;
b Having admitted that there is a fault with their system they will actually have to fix it.

Far easier and cheaper to argue that they are right and you are wrong and hope you go away.....

But they wouldn't fix the problem as has been mentioned this is a problem with ITSO itself and not so much Nexus.

And as long as they produce some promotional material to make people aware then they have every right to argue their point and win. The point being, I wasn't aware of this limitation and so why shouldn't they treat this as a lesson learned for the future and to let people know. Once we start getting more people trying to renew at machines using Pop cards that expire and they can't add a ticket the media will get hold of it and Nexus will have to do something then and at that point it will cost considerably more because not only will it be damage control, but they will have to tell others. Right now, they could simply give me the £3.60 for my ticket and make people aware of the limitation handing off the blame or it could reach the media when loads of people can't do it and get blown up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IIRC Nexus are responsible for the smart ticketing, not DB Regio. Nexus are a local authority organisation. Therefore I'd be inclined to think that the Local Authority Ombudsman could look at complaints about them- they will deal with complaints about the transport department of a council- so you might want to speak to them.

Passenger Focus are easily ignored, the Local Authority Ombudsman less so.

Nexus are responsible for the Pop Card, but when I emailed in asking about the refund they told me it would be Metro dealing with it. That then became Nexus.

The local authority would probably be just as useless but I'll give them a shout, thanks for the tip

 

[Olympian]

But they wouldn't fix the problem as has been mentioned this is a problem with ITSO itself and not so much Nexus.

Just to be clear this isn't actually a problem with the ITSO specification itself, as no card system should intentionally allow a product to be added to a card where the product is valid after the card itself expires, but with the Nexus implementation of ITSO by not issuing cards with long enough expiry dates or indeed any expiry dates at all and also not conveying this limitation to their cardholders. In ITSO you can actually set a card to "Never expire", as I believe Stagecoach do with their smartcards, so you could then keep using it until/unless it stops working and won't encounter the problem you did as the card would never expire before any product you added to it.

 

[ModernRailways]

Just to be clear this isn't actually a problem with the ITSO specification itself, as no card system should intentionally allow a product to be added to a card where the product is valid after the card itself expires, but with the Nexus implementation of ITSO by not issuing cards with long enough expiry dates or indeed any expiry dates at all and also not conveying this limitation to their cardholders. In ITSO you can actually set a card to "Never expire", as I believe Stagecoach do with their smartcards, so you could then keep using it until/unless it stops working and won't encounter the problem you did as the card would never expire before any product you added to it.

Ah! Thanks for the explanation!

 

[ModernRailways]

Quick update. I've received a reply from Passenger Focus. Nexus are going to be sending me £10. So instead of acknowledging the problem and refunding immediately they've spent £6 40 extra in a refund as well as the admin costs they will have had.

Nexus' response, as well as a response to my query about Gold Cards and CT passes.

"At present we can upload a Gold Card season ticket to a Concessionary Travel pass which allows card holders to travel on the Metro system by touching their CT pass on and off at the beginning and end of their journey on one of the new validator posts or gates. As the Fold Card has a validity of 12 months, this means the ticket can only be loaded to a CT pass that has at least 12 months remaining before the stated expiry date. If the CT pass has more than 12 month remaining, the Gold Card can be purchased at either a ticket vending machine or a Nexus Travelshop. However in the instance where there is less than 12 months remaining on the CT pass, they pass holder should call into a Nexus Travelshop where the staff could load a Gold Card which would expire at the same time as the CT pass along with a card allowing the customer to redeem the remaining time once the CT pass is renewed."