Next Tory leader

[Bromley boy]

The labour party under him though are far from the crazed Marxists the right wing press wants everyone to believe they are.

Maybe not yet.

The shadowy “Momentum” group is working hard to change that.

 

[fowler9]

Maybe not yet.

The shadowy “Momentum” group is working hard to change that.

that is exactly

Maybe not yet.

The shadowy “Momentum” group is working hard to change that.

This is exactly what I am talking about. The right wing press wanted everyone to believe that it was Momentum that shoved their oar in in Haringey over housing. They didn't, it was ordinary people who lived there. Just an example.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What was your take on Labour's manifesto in 2017? I think it was kind of close to Social Democracy from what I remember (though my memory isn't the best), and they seemed like the kind of promises you'd hear be made in Sweden.

I liked it and supported it with my vote. But the Labour party does have a lot of baggage I’d love to be rid of.

 

[fowler9]

I liked it and supported it with my vote. But the Labour party does have a lot of baggage I’d love to be rid of.

And the Tories don't?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the Tories don't?

Where did I say they didn’t?

 

[fowler9]

Where did I say they didn’t?

Where did I say you didn't or did?

 

[Bromley boy]

that is exactly

This is exactly what I am talking about. The right wing press wanted everyone to believe that it was Momentum that shoved their oar in in Haringey over housing. They didn't, it was ordinary people who lived there. Just an example.

I didn't say anything about Haringey in my post. I hope you aren't saying any criticism of momentum must be down to brainwashing by the "right wing press"?

If so, I'm not sure its me that's been brainwashed .

 

[fowler9]

I didn't say anything about Haringey in my post. I hope you aren't saying any criticism of momentum must be down to brainwashing by the "right wing press"?

If so, I'm not sure its me that's been brainwashed .

Ha ha. I didn't say that. Just giving examples mate.

 

[Bromley boy]

I liked it and supported it with my vote. But the Labour party does have a lot of baggage I’d love to be rid of.

Did you not also feel a sneaking suspicion that it was the product of a party moderated (for the time being) by a significant rump of normal, sensible, experienced politicians.

There's no guarantee that moderating influence will remain given the concerns expressed about deselection lists etc. (concerns expressed by labour politicians themselves in some cases).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Did you not also feel a sneaking suspicion that it was the product of a party moderated (for the time being) by a significant rump of normal, sensible, experienced politicians.

There's no guarantee that moderating influence will remain.

Indeed, hence my desire for a new party founded on European centre left social democracy.

 

[birchesgreen]

Maybe not yet.

The shadowy “Momentum” group is working hard to change that.

Momentum are a bit overblown i think. My friend (and a fellow party member) has been to a couple of Momentum meetings in his constituency just for interest/LULZ and to be honest it wasn't quite the great awakening.

 

[furnessvale]

Momentum are a bit overblown i think. My friend (and a fellow party member) has been to a couple of Momentum meetings in his constituency just for interest/LULZ and to be honest it wasn't quite the great awakening.

You mean a bit like union meetings years ago (not necessarily railway industry), which were dull as ditchwater until all the lads that had to go to work the following morning had gone home to bed.

Then the juicy stuff was discussed and voted on.

 

[fowler9]

You mean a bit like union meetings years ago (not necessarily railway industry), which were dull as ditchwater until all the lads that had to go to work the following morning had gone home to bed.

Then the juicy stuff was discussed and voted on.

What were the meetings like after the lads who had to be in work had gone home?

 

[Up_Tilt_390]

My only concern with a Social Democratic Party is that, if it's the only moderate party, the spoiler effect inherent with a first past the post system will likely allow the Tories to win by default. In 1983, the SDP-Liberal Alliance were part of the reason Labour lost. Those dissatisfied with Labour had someone to vote for, but then none of the Tory voters would've voted for them anyway. All it did was split the opposition vote and pretty much helped in Thatcher securing her second term.

If there is a centre-right party though then the Tories will split too, and you'll end up with coalitions where things just won't get done. Then again, Germany has had them for some time now if I'm not mistaken. I'd rather the main parties either reform or be replaced by the social democrats and liberals forming another alliance party, and moderate conservatives make their own party too. I originally wished for just a liberal party that was serious about their policies, but I'll compromise with Bletchleyite here and just have them together. It would do good for a few voters.

 

[birchesgreen]

You mean a bit like union meetings years ago (not necessarily railway industry), which were dull as ditchwater until all the lads that had to go to work the following morning had gone home to bed.

Then the juicy stuff was discussed and voted on.

Not really, it was a bit Citizen Smith

 

[DarloRich]

You mean a bit like union meetings years ago (not necessarily railway industry), which were dull as ditchwater until all the lads that had to go to work the following morning had gone home to bed.

Then the juicy stuff was discussed and voted on.

the typical trot entryist tricks you mean. Make the meetings dull as anything, drive away the decent people with a life and leave only the pure and committed to take over. Surely not.

We had to chuck this lot out once before and it looks we will have to do that again. The sad fact is that they now have a much deeper rooted position within the party and have control of the mechanisms of the direction of the party, like the NEC and their man in Corbyn ( and his cronies) in leadership roles. It wont end well.

 

[dcsprior]

The labour party under him though are far from the crazed Marxists the right wing press wants everyone to believe they are.

Maybe not yet.

The shadowy “Momentum” group is working hard to change that.

We had to chuck this lot out once before and it looks we will have to do that again. The sad fact is that they now have a much deeper rooted position within the party and have control of the mechanisms of the direction of the party, like the NEC and their man in Corbyn ( and his cronies) in leadership roles. It wont end well.

Even if Momentum are indeed very far left, surely the fact that they're a relatively small proportion of overall membership means they just move the overall position of the party slightly to the left.

If I lived south of the border, I'd probably vote Labour and would want that Labour party to be in the middle of the left. Given that some of it's members are on the right of the left, this needs some on the left of the left to balance it out

By way of an analogy, in the last Scottish Parliament elections my regional list vote went to the Greens - because I thought the SNP's position on their use of the new income tax powers wasn't bold enough - I certainly didn't want to go as far as the Greens, but felt that an SNP government dependent on green votes would have to put forward budgets that were closer to what I wanted than what was in their manifesto to deliver if they got a majority (and I seem to have been proven right).

 

[SteveP29]

Social housing should be kept for those with long term health needs or disabilities preventing them from working, in my view.

That experiment was tried in the 19th century all over this country, all it did was coral the poorest and those with most need into the smallest spaces, with little amenities, creating slums and poverty.
Watching the first 15 minutes of this programme will show how give you an example of how bad it was in Glasgow...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episo...of-our-streets-series-2-2-duke-street-glasgow

The vast majority of the electorate do not live in social housing and will never have the opportunity to do so. It's not really on their radar.

You honestly think everyone in social housing is doing that by choice?

The big issue is that jobs are insecure and low waged. That's something that needs to be tackled. Sadly the Tories don't seem bothered about fixing the problems

Correct

Also remember that council housing isn't the same as private rental. It's not decorated, it's not furnished, they normally don't even come with carpets. If you've spent real money on carpets and wallpaper, do you want to leave it behind with nothing to show for it?

We accepted our council flat in the state it was offered to us, 40 years worth of wallpaper on the walls (5 layers in one room!!), no carpets and the bathroom and kitchen they had installed, which was the same with every council property we put a bid in for. One even had an empty kitchen, as the previous tenant had put their own kitchen in, so the council had taken it out when they left.
We spent over £1500 on carpets and wallpaper etc just to get the property into a state in which it was ready to move into (and those carpets will just be removed when we move on)