Next time it snows...

[tbtc]

...would you rather the railway concentrated on trying to:

1. Keep trains running and maintain as many services as possible?

2. Concentrated on improving communication - updating people about where delays/ cancellations are?

The obvious answer is "both", but realistically, where should we be trying to improve the most?

 

[Fred26]

Why realistically, do you not think the railway can do both?

 

[CarterUSM]

...would you rather the railway concentrated on trying to:

1. Keep trains running and maintain as many services as possible?

2. Concentrated on improving communication - updating people about where delays/ cancellations are?

The obvious answer is "both", but realistically, where should we be trying to improve the most?

There are obvious problems with both, but ideally you'd want number 1. Normal service = happier punters.

 

[O L Leigh]

Because, realistically, it isn't as simple as perhaps some people expect.

O L Leigh

 

[tbtc]

Why realistically, do you not think the railway can do both?

It could try to, yes, but I'm wondering what people think the biggest priority ought to be.

Were you more angry about the lack of services (over the last couple of weeks) or the way this was communicated?

 

[CarterUSM]

It could try to, yes, but I'm wondering what people think the biggest priority ought to be.

Were you more angry about the lack of services (over the last couple of weeks) or the way this was communicated?

I think it boils down to lack of services, i find people are generally angry about it whether they've been well informed or not.

 

[WatcherZero]

Surely good management of services in poor weather relies on good internal company communications. Its not much more hassle to plug a conduit in to transfer that information from within the company to the passengers. By better organisation and tackling of problems you would also be improving passenger information as long as the company took the simplest of measures.

 

[Matt Taylor]

I think we will find out by this time next week which TOCs have learnt lessons from two weeks ago.

Southern and South Eastern should be interesting to watch.

 

[Failed Unit]

I guess we will find out next week but poor communications seems to be Scotrails biggest fault. People understand the timetable needs to be reduced but East Coast published a timetable the night before with Scotrail you never knew until that morning.

I know a lot of factors come into play, for example the staff that operate the trains probably need to use the same untreated roads to get to work, or you can't tell how many sets are available but Scotrail seem very bad at providing info.

 

[me123]

The best option would be 1 surely. If it was as simple as just being able to spend money and run as many services as possible, then the need for improved communication would be decreased as they're likely to cope better communicating fewer problems.

Between now and next week (looking at the forecast), however, I think Scotrail in particular should be looking at their communications infrastructure. A lot of the time it was an absolute shambles. Trains showing as "on time" when they were in fact cancelled, trains showing as cancelled were running. Information in the mornings on line was patchy or non-existent. The information on journeycheck was a work of fiction... you get the idea.

 

[jopsuk]

1 should be the priority, but 2 should be done if 1 can't be...

 

[mumrar]

1 should be the priority, but 2 should be done if 1 can't be...

Ideally it would be both, and preferably 1, but it's not as simple as saying this should happen. Gone are the days when there were more traincrew depots and stations, with people able to walk or cycle to work. Just because you live near a station, it doesn't mean you can travel by train to work either.

Whilst the media have been looking for blame on the travel disruption it is really caused mostly by our modern business and lifestyle choices. People have less locations to work on larger sites (such as technology parks) and generally live further away from work. Put all those together and it multiplies the problem as so many more poeple are trying to travel greater distances in the bad weather.

For example, I work at Birmingham New Street depot, but I live in Redditch, 15min walk from the station. Rewind the clock and Redditch had a small depot. Now I have to travel 14 miles by bike/car to get to work, such as today for 04:36 as the first train arrives at 07:03.

 

[Fred26]

It could try to, yes, but I'm wondering what people think the biggest priority ought to be.

Were you more angry about the lack of services (over the last couple of weeks) or the way this was communicated?

Personally, I was only effected by East Coast. East Coast are very good at keeping their staff and the staff of other TOCs informed, so I had no problem with them in that department.
Obviously keeping trains running would be great, but I don't know how they'd do that.

 

[dk1]

The DfT interfering & daemanding improvements is nothing new. Remember that poor old 47 on an INTERCITY cross-country pulling into Temple Meads something like 15hrs late & Network Southeast investing in a snow blower as it had once again ground to a halt. The government got involved & held enquiries into how we must improve the lot for travellers in future bad weather.

20 years on & wintry conditions come & go & again major disruption to services. We just seem to go round in circles & as we can never predict a good/bad winter & whether it be Scotland, Kent or Herefordshire that gets it the worst. I would imagine a similar discussion taking place in 2030 as HS2 throws away the normal timetable for the 3rd day running.

 

[cuccir]

The biggest issue I found was that both the journey planner and the live departures/arrivals bit became unusable. This was particularly true with the provisional East Coast service on its first couple of days: I couldn't tell whether a delayed train or a cancelled train was delayed or cancelled in relation to the original timetable, or the emergency one. After a few days they had that sorted so hopefully on Thursday, when it begins again, they will be better equipped to deal with this. So I'd rather have a reliable disrupted service (if that makes sense): it also means that passengers can plan their journey knowing that a train will be busy.

I also experienced this with the Esk Valley line, but I wasn't sure if this was a snow-related issue or whether the line simply doesn't have the infrastructure for live updates? The train I got from Middlesbrough-Great Ayton was delayed by about 40 minutes (and showed as much at the station) but not displayed as late on the web; my return was 20 minutes late (I guessed it would be late to an extent- it was the same train as I'd got out, on its return journey) but a call to Northern's enquiry number from the station phone ensured me it would be on time. I was annoyed that there wasn't the ability to call Whitby station and ask if it had left there on time. But again, I don't know if that's snow related or a specific problem of that very rural line?

--
Btw, this post sounds negative, but its because of the nature of the question. With the exception of Southeastern, and I appreciate that that was a third-rail infrastructural issue that they could do little about, all of my and my friend's experiences during this period were as good as could be expected!

 

[Invincibles]

I would say 2, especially if it can make it possible for fewer journeys to be started.

Certainly people would moan about their service being cancelled, but if they do not have to deice the car to get to the station and suffer the inconveniences of then finding out that their train is one of the (admittedly fewer) cancelled services then there are many good things to come from that. Fewer vehicles on the road, fewer people for the trains that do run, and generally reduced risks of accidents.

For me points set to one position seems sensible, and if people know that the services that do run run almost normally but the services that do not are completely cancelled it makes the message easy to understand.

Training more staff with more route knowledge to help the open lines run the normal service would seem a sensible plan (albeit an expensive one for TOCs)

For example had EMT just said we have a normal mainline service, with services running as scheduled between Nottingham and Sheffield, Lincoln (or Newark Castle) and Nottingham, Nottingham and Mansfield. Then that would have been clear to everyone and they could all plan accordingly. (I can not remember how Derby to Matlock and Crewe faired but maybe they are lower priority routes for getting trains running)

 

[Greenback]

If people knew their train was cancelled, wouldn;t they still go to the station and get on a different one thatw as running? That would mean no reduction at all in the number of cars on the road, or the number of people on the trains that do run!

Perhaps you are talking about when services on the entire route are suspended? That would mean that some people would give up on trying to get anywhere, but could it also not mean that some will be tempted to drive instead? This may mean more cars on the road as well!

 

[Invincibles]

I do mean when entire routes are not running.

Maybe some people will then try to do the whole journey by car, but maybe they would do the whole journey by car anyway because they would have to be willing to drive in pretty awful conditions (which they would be well informed about via the TV)

It would surely be tempting to say the route was impassable and not to go to work, especially if you have evidence from the train companies to back you up when you tell your boss. Would not work after a few days but for a while it would be ok.

 

[tbtc]

The biggest issue I found was that both the journey planner and the live departures/arrivals bit became unusable

This is a bugbear of mine.

What's the point in "Live" Departure Boards which clearly aren't up to date?

We have "live" bus stop displays in Sheffield which claimed services were running on days with no bus services (due to snow).

If people can't trust the "live" information then there's little point to it. Bad information is worse than no information.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well, the forecast is for heavy snow and intense Arctic cold again from Thursday / Friday this week, so any lessons from the past couple of weeks need to be learned quickly.

Are the GLV de-icers still undergoing overhaul or have they been released yet?

 

[Greenback]

I do mean when entire routes are not running.

Maybe some people will then try to do the whole journey by car, but maybe they would do the whole journey by car anyway because they would have to be willing to drive in pretty awful conditions (which they would be well informed about via the TV)

It would surely be tempting to say the route was impassable and not to go to work, especially if you have evidence from the train companies to back you up when you tell your boss. Would not work after a few days but for a while it would be ok.

In my experience most employers will tell their employees not to travel if conditions are so bad that driving is dangerous and no trains are running.

There are clearly lessons from the latest snow chaos, but it's difficult to see where things can be improved without spending a great deal of money. There have been a lot of cutbacks in back office staff in the last few years, and ther eis simply no capacity left to be able to collate and disseminate the huge amount of information that is coming and going during bad weather. Units will be failing left, right and centre, staff reporting they can't get to work, and a thousand and one other things as well as updating CIS systems.

Id o think, though, that getting as many trains to run as possible is the prime consideration.

This is a bugbear of mine.

What's the point in "Live" Departure Boards which clearly aren't up to date?

We have "live" bus stop displays in Sheffield which claimed services were running on days with no bus services (due to snow).

If people can't trust the "live" information then there's little point to it. Bad information is worse than no information.

I agree with that. Sadly, in the confusion of disruption messages to front line staff can fail to get through at all, get mixed up or not passed on accurately, and this is what leads to such things as contradictions between screens and platform staff.

 

[mumrar]

Is bad indormation worse than none? Whenever I've got stuck behind a failed train I announce what has happened and add 'undortunately it is not possible to know how long the delay will be, as I am not on site with the train nor have the technical know-how to fix it.' I will follow up by having a walk through the train to check everyone heard (bloody mp3 players!). Invariably, half of the people I speak to will ask me how long the delay is going to be. I tell them again that I don't know and they ask me to guess, which I politely refuse.

 

[Failed Unit]

Maybe it should be said wrong information is better than none. While on a failed unit the main information needed is that the set has failed and an update will be provided later.

What annoys passengers is if they look at the information systems before they set out. All is ok then turn up to the station to find out no trains were running. Or in the case of Scotrail trains shown as running that were never going to be.

 

[Greenback]

Being honest isn't bad information! What most people like is some sort of estimate, but the trouble is that some then take this as gospel and complain when it doesn't happen that way!

In contrast bad information in my book is being told that your train is going to be 15 minutes late, only to find it was actually cancelled half an hour ago!

 

[Failed Unit]

I once was sat onboard a Glasgow - Edinburgh failed unit. The person waiting to meet me phoned to tell me it was cancelled. About 10 minutes later we were told and left the train at Falkirk high. The gaurd wasn't impressed either as he was the last person control told. He had just told the passengers we would be moving shortly - the last thing control told him. You feel sorry for frontline staff in situations like that.

 

[Greenback]

I feel sorry for control too. It must be like trying to juggle thirty sticks with one hand.

 

[jon0844]

I think it boils down to lack of services, i find people are generally angry about it whether they've been well informed or not.

Yes, it seems that if you do give good information then people just sigh and say 'typical' along with some rant about how the railway can't cope with bad weather, how it's better abroad and so on.

Of course, they'll moan EVEN MORE without information.. but you won't win any fans by simply giving lots of updates.

 

[Kingston Flyer]

Yes, it seems that if you do give good information then people just sigh and say 'typical' along with some rant about how the railway can't cope with bad weather, how it's better abroad and so on.

I have to admit I have been lucky with the railways and failures.

The only failure I have had in recent memory was an S-bahn train from Neugarten to Buxentude (in the Hamburg suburbs) just over a week ago.

So I definately can't say it's better abroad.

We were probably given plenty of information, but my lack of German didn't help me out.

 

[jon0844]

A lot of the time it was an absolute shambles. Trains showing as "on time" when they were in fact cancelled, trains showing as cancelled were running.

This is a problem at any time. When you have 'no report', most systems will say 'on time' but why can't services that run backwards and forwards have some way of being linked?

That way, if a train that will become a future service is heavily delayed or cancelled, it can retrospectively update the screens for the next service to say 'delayed', 'cancelled' or perhaps 'unconfirmed' to be more accurate (given that another service/train might be used and it still runs, but late).

Likewise, cancelled trains that might be reinstated should also have another way of being reported so not to have people leaving the station to find it turns up. Are there pre-recorded announcements to say a train is being reinstated, and if it was showing cancelled and the time passed, does it come back on the screen or become a ghost train?

These are things the railway needs to look at, because you can often work out long before a train is cancelled that it will be. At Hatfield, you can even tell when a service will be heavily delayed by literally seeing the train you're going to take going the other way to turn around at Welwyn Garden City (and such a turnaround takes a few minutes at the very least).

Despite this, you have 'On time' showing right up until the point the train should have arrived, when it begins to count up as 'Estimated <train scheduled time> + delay' which will continue to rise even if the train hasn't started! Suffice to say, passengers then lose all confidence in the system - even though it's technically correct in what it is showing!