Next 50 Bids for reopenings

[daodao]

The only thing I can add to the York - Beverley debate is that there are some people saying you can travel by Selby and Hull so what's the issue?

Surely if you wanted to walk from the top left corner of a rectangle to the top right corner of a rectangle, most people would want to walk along the top edge only. People saying there is already a three edge route are surely crazy in my opinion. Why would you want to walk 3/4 of the rectangle when you could just walk 1/4??

The distance from Hull to York via Selby and Sherburn-in-Elmet is 51 miles (48 miles if direct via the Hambleton cut-off) compared to 42 miles by the former route via Market Weighton. The existing route is also largely suitable for fast running. If the York-Leeds stopping service via Pontefract was improved, more of the existing York-Hull trains could be routed via the Hambleton cut-off without reducing the service from Sherburn-in-Elmet to York.

Beeching made a decision based on the prevailing circumstances of the 1960s. Many were right, some were questionable and some were wrong. We have however moved on in the subsequent sixty-odd years and decisions that were made then surely cannot be binding on what we do now to meet the needs and requirements of the 21st Century. I would propose that rather than simply dismissing the suggestion on the basis that "Beeching was right" it might be worth engaging with the very good arguments advanced by @IanXC (which I would agree with having experienced the main road in question and the rail journey between Hull and York when I went to University in Hull). Otherwise, why on earth even bother with any of these exercises at all!?

York-Hull via Market Weighton was a duplicate route. It is far cheaper to develop the existing service. I have already made a number of points why I don't think it is a priority or value-for-money earlier in the thread. I can think of at least 4 more worthwhile rail re-openings in Yorkshire and the North-East, reconnecting places of greater size and significance to the rail network:
Ashington to Newcastle
Consett via Stanley and Beamish to Newcastle
Guisborough to Nunthorpe (and hence Middlesbrough)
Ripon to Harrogate (and hence Leeds)

 

[BayPaul]

Half of the Brixham bit is still intact albeit as the steam line to Dartmouth!

And that's the only bit that they wanted to re-instate at the time - i.e. Churston for Brixham. See my earlier post about why I don't think that is such a great plan

 

[lachlan]

But yet that's what happened on the Borders Railway?

Your hypothetical commuter yes probably does have a car. But if they work in York they'll be experiencing a congested journey on a road with a poor safety record to get to a park and ride site for a bus into the centre of York. If they work in Hull they'll be also experiencing such a road, followed in all likelihood by spending a significant part of their journey crawling into Hull on Beverley Road. The idea that none of these people would be tempted to give that up for a quicker train journey doesn't really wash in my opinion.

To add to this, the same could be said about any new line. Building the line also opens opportunities for non-drivers. The bus from Beverley to York was slow. It's timetabled to take 1hr15 mins but when I made the journey it took 1hr30.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

This one actually looks quite reasonable, I've stuck an image below from their website For only 6 miles of track it looks to be actually quite useful and would allow a direct train from the tourist area of Stratford upon Avon (Shakespeare attracts quite a few tourists...) to London, and it seems to be a fairly reasonable diversionary route if WCML works happen again.
View attachment 80215

Presumably you'd have to contend with the A4390 having been built on the trackbed in Stratford. Less than half a mile but looks on Google Maps like quite a problem. And I'm guessing more services between Honeybourne and Worcester might require some more redoubling on the Cotswolds line. Nice idea though.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably you'd have to contend with the A4390 having been built on the trackbed in Stratford. Less than half a mile but looks on Google Maps like quite a problem. And I'm guessing more services between Honeybourne and Worcester might require some more redoubling on the Cotswolds line. Nice idea though.

That’s a significant obstacle, and almost certainly terminal for the proposal.

 

[bluenoxid]

I’m sure that I saw something about how the campaign group thought that the road network could be dealt with in Stratford to enable the railway line.

 

[MarkyT]

I’m sure that I saw something about how the campaign group thought that the road network could be dealt with in Stratford to enable the railway line.

The outline proposal by Arup had a long trench and underpasses beneath the roads that block the original formation. I question their suggestion of Brunel's broad gauge though as seen in this video!:

 

[Bald Rick]

The outline proposal by Arup had a long trench and underpasses beneath the roads that block the original formation. I question their suggestion of Brunel's broad gauge though as seen in this video!:

I question their engineering capability. Leaving aside the principle that this chops off bits of the road, and it would be below the water table and thus difficult to keep dry and stable, how do you build it? There’s a lot of deep piling needed, right in the middle of a residential area. The roads would need closing for much of the construction, forcing traffic onto other busy roads, and denying access to several properties which would have to be compulsorily purchased.

I can’t see that mile long stretch being less than £150m, which makes the whole job £400m+.

It’s a shame, as I thought this one had a chance.

 

[Starmill]

York-Hull via Market Weighton was a duplicate route. It is far cheaper to develop the existing service. I have already made a number of points why I don't think it is a priority or value-for-money earlier in the thread. I can think of at least 4 more worthwhile rail re-openings in Yorkshire and the North-East, reconnecting places of greater size and significance to the rail network:
Ashington to Newcastle
Consett via Stanley and Beamish to Newcastle
Guisborough to Nunthorpe (and hence Middlesbrough)
Ripon to Harrogate (and hence Leeds)

The Northumberland line (Ashington to Newcastle) is not in scope. It is already in design.

Ripon to Harrogate is better than Ripon to Northallerton at least, but still a remarkably small market for 13 new route miles. Only one service per hour terminates at Harrogate too so you'd have just 1 diesel train to extend to Ripon. And there's no way just Ripon is a place of 'size or significance' to the railway.

Guisborough to Middlesbrough would work beautifully if you mothballed the the line to Battersby, and leased Battersby - Grosmont to the NYMR, and extended all Nunthorpe services to Guisborough. Sound practical with the locals? Northern would run a bus to Whitby that runs hourly connecting with every train at Guisborough.

 

[daodao]

The Northumberland line (Ashington to Newcastle) is not in scope. It is already in design.

Ripon to Harrogate is better than Ripon to Northallerton at least, but still a remarkably small market for 13 new route miles. Only one service per hour terminates at Harrogate too so you'd have just 1 diesel train to extend to Ripon. And there's no way just Ripon is a place of 'size or significance' to the railway.

Guisborough to Middlesbrough would work beautifully if you mothballed the the line to Battersby, and leased Battersby - Grosmont to the NYMR, and extended all Nunthorpe services to Guisborough. Sound practical with the locals? Northern would run a bus to Whitby that runs hourly connecting with every train at Guisborough.

Ashington to Newcastle may have passed the scoping stage, but it is not yet open, so can be classified as a re-opening, albeit technically outwith the scope of this thread.

Ripon is a cathedral city with a population of 17k, not including neighbouring localities. It is substantially more important as a place than Stamford Bridge, Pocklington and Market Weighton, and 13 miles is substantially less than the distance of 34 miles from York to Beverley. There is a terminating service at Harrogate on the existing network which it could link into, which would connect it to a major city (Leeds). The popularity of the route 36 bus from Ripon to Leeds shows that there is significant public transport demand on this corridor; the service is more frequent and uses larger buses now than I recall from the 1960s/70s (when my grandparents lived at Alwoodley Gates served by this route).

If an additional passing loop is installed at or close to Nunthorpe, Whitby-Battersby-Middlesbrough services could co-exist with a new Guisborough to Middlesbrough service.

 

[Efini92]

What does 'East Didsbury to Stockport' mean? Is that Metrolink extension? Why is that in a reopening/'Beeching' initiative? Along with additional frequencies on existing routes?! That is not a reopening - no more than a passing loop in Bricket Wood was! Urgh. So many things here should not be in this list - not to mention half of the valid 'reopenings' being bonkers.

I used to live near Camberwell. It would be very useful, and well used - but can see the expense and the slowing down of journeys being a disbenefit. Shame as it was the commiseration sop they were thrown for being denied their Bakerloo spur to Denmark Hill (now also probably dead). Plus shouldn't it be in the new stations initiative!

I've always quite liked the symmetry and connectivity of Honeybourne, but it's not critical by any means. And I'd prefer Chiltern take on more in the Oxford area personally.

It was heavy rail until the beeching closures. However as Metrolink have now taken over the track bed it’s not really a heavy rail project

 

[MarkyT]

I question their engineering capability. Leaving aside the principle that this chops off bits of the road, and it would be below the water table and thus difficult to keep dry and stable, how do you build it? There’s a lot of deep piling needed, right in the middle of a residential area. The roads would need closing for much of the construction, forcing traffic onto other busy roads, and denying access to several properties which would have to be compulsorily purchased.

I can’t see that mile long stretch being less than £150m, which makes the whole job £400m+.

It’s a shame, as I thought this one had a chance.

I wonder how the Arup idea would compare to a bored single track tunnel for the approx. 600m core section under Seven Meadows Road. That could avoid much of the road closure disruption, noise etc. A TBM might be supplied, and spoil removed by rail from the Stratford station end. Drainage would still be an issue of course.

 

[Bald Rick]

I wonder how the Arup idea would compare to a bored single track tunnel for the approx. 600m core section under Seven Meadows Road. That could avoid much of the road closure disruption, noise etc. A TBM might be supplied, and spoil removed by rail from the Stratford station end. Drainage would still be an issue of course.

I know this is in the realms of speculation, but to get down deep enough would mean that Stratford station would have to be dropped. I don’t know what the ground conditions are here, except they are likely to be wet. Which means ground settlement will be a significant issue. That means adjacent properties would still be affected, probably more of them to be honest, albeit probably to a lesser extent.

 

[Dr Day]

Ref Stratford - could tram-train be a solution? Go on-street with some bold re-assignment of road space rather than an expensive tunnel just for the sake of maintaining a dedicated permanent way? OK, you wouldn't want to go on a tram-train all the way to London or Birmingham, but as a kind of Warwickshire 'Metro' broadly along the A46?

 

[ABB125]

I know this is in the realms of speculation, but to get down deep enough would mean that Stratford station would have to be dropped. I don’t know what the ground conditions are here, except they are likely to be wet. Which means ground settlement will be a significant issue. That means adjacent properties would still be affected, probably more of them to be honest, albeit probably to a lesser extent.

If, hypothetically, it was decided to do a cut and cover double track tunnel with the road on top, how long would it take to build (the tunnel), assuming all the design work and machinery and workforce are in place and it's simply the case* of "dig, dig, dig until you can dig no more"?
Is one week wildly off the mark?

*I know nothing is ever "simply... [insert task]!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Ref Stratford - could tram-train be a solution? Go on-street with some bold re-assignment of road space rather than an expensive tunnel just for the sake of maintaining a dedicated permanent way? OK, you wouldn't want to go on a tram-train all the way to London or Birmingham, but as a kind of Warwickshire 'Metro' broadly along the A46?

Looking at it, the main driver of house-building in that area will be biased towards Birmingham commuter traffic.

On that basis, you’re probably asking more for a ‘half-hourly’ (might not quite be achieved, but similar) service from Birmingham to Long Marston. Perhaps someone could consider turning one service via Henley into a bit of an express? And then keep the service via Solihull?

I’m also guessing it’s better to run the services towards Worcester, even to Worcester, rather than trying to go towards London?

 

[A0]

I could have said it better, you’re right.

You only have to look at the people who spend leisure time in Hunstanton and elsewhere on the north Norfolk coast, and the cars they drive, to see that they are pretty unlikely to swap to a rail service from Kings Lynn.

I'll raise you on that one - because it's not even about the "cars they drive". Where I live - Northamptonshire - Hunstanton is one of the coastal destinations people head to for a day out when it's sunny. So pick any of the 4 key towns in Northants - Northampton, Wellingborough, Kettering or Corby. Northampton to Hunstanton by road is circa 90 miles, the others slightly less. Not one of them makes sense as a rail journey - even to Kings Lynn, because the main way would be into London and back out again.

Even the oft peddled re-instatement of Northampton to Peterborough (which I can't see any justification for) would be little or no difference, because you'd then have to work your way across to Cambridge to get to Kings Lynn.

EWR *might* help a bit, but that's not going to even come close to justifying Hunstanton being reinstated.

 

[Bald Rick]

If, hypothetically, it was decided to do a cut and cover double track tunnel with the road on top, how long would it take to build (the tunnel), assuming all the design work and machinery and workforce are in place and it's simply the case* of "dig, dig, dig until you can dig no more"?
Is one week wildly off the mark?

*I know nothing is ever "simply... [insert task]!

Well, nothing is ever simple...

But, assuming all the ground conditions were fully understood (requiring several weeks of road closures and local disruption while they were done in advance), and everything was in place for the work, it could probably be done in a year, as long as the Avon was never in flood, and the locals didn’t mind 7 day working. This would be just the main civils, ie getting the trench dug and covered back up.

 

[ABB125]

Well, nothing is ever simple...

But, assuming all the ground conditions were fully understood (requiring several weeks of road closures and local disruption while they were done in advance), and everything was in place for the work, it could probably be done in a year, as long as the Avon was never in flood, and the locals didn’t mind 7 day working. This would be just the main civils, ie getting the trench dug and covered back up.

So unlikely then!

 

[BayPaul]

Ref Stratford - could tram-train be a solution? Go on-street with some bold re-assignment of road space rather than an expensive tunnel just for the sake of maintaining a dedicated permanent way? OK, you wouldn't want to go on a tram-train all the way to London or Birmingham, but as a kind of Warwickshire 'Metro' broadly along the A46?

That does seem possible. If you could avoid the need to grade separate, the scheme does look achievable. The A4390 corridor looks reasonably wide, probably wide enough to add a single track line that doesn't need to share space with the road, but getting across the roundabouts at both ends would obviously cause interactions with the roads. If it could be constructed to a tram-standard, allowing a level crossing at each end, then would construction of the route be possible? Obviously a tram-train vehicle would then be necessary, presumably to run all the way into Birmingham, but it could presumbably be constructed to a main line train layout, just with the additional tram-train features needed to run on this short piece of line.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Well once you get into tram/light-rail vehicles I would guess you gain the huge advantage that you can have much steeper gradients. That could theoretically make it possible to run a single track level with the road for much of the route, climbing up to pass over the two roundabouts. Still pretty expensive though (both for the bridges and trying to create some kind of custom tram-train technology for the route - bearing in mind it's not electrified)

But.... I really can't see anything like a tram being remotely attractive for people wanting to travel all the way to Birmingham (or to Worcester). You're talking about a 50 mile route (Birmingham-Stratford-Honeybourne-Worcester) being run by tram-trains just to get round an awkward half-mile when the entire rest of the line perfectly says, heavy rail.

I'm going to stick my neck out and say, if the project was to be built, the most likely solution would involve some minor changes to the road network to allow a single track to be laid alongside the current A4390 - which isn't entirely daft given that the road in question isn't - so far as I can see on Google Maps - really a key artery into Stratford - it's more of an additional/alternative route to get to the A3400 just outside Stratford.

 

[trebor79]

I'll raise you on that one - because it's not even about the "cars they drive". Where I live - Northamptonshire - Hunstanton is one of the coastal destinations people head to for a day out when it's sunny. So pick any of the 4 key towns in Northants - Northampton, Wellingborough, Kettering or Corby. Northampton to Hunstanton by road is circa 90 miles, the others slightly less. Not one of them makes sense as a rail journey - even to Kings Lynn, because the main way would be into London and back out again.

Even the oft peddled re-instatement of Northampton to Peterborough (which I can't see any justification for) would be little or no difference, because you'd then have to work your way across to Cambridge to get to Kings Lynn.

EWR *might* help a bit, but that's not going to even come close to justifying Hunstanton being reinstated.

I sometimes wonder if reinstating King's Lynn to Spalding and KL to Dereham wouldn't provide a useful route, especially if Hunstanton was reinstated. Provides a proper east/west route into and out of East Anglia.
I think the biggest problem with a lot of these proposals is that they are considered in isolation. Really what's needed is a thorough review of what the rail system is suppose to achieve, and then reshape it to deliver that vision. That might include some closures as well as some openings.

 

[YorksLad12]

Ripon to Harrogate is better than Ripon to Northallerton at least, but still a remarkably small market for 13 new route miles. Only one service per hour terminates at Harrogate too so you'd have just 1 diesel train to extend to Ripon. And there's no way just Ripon is a place of 'size or significance' to the railway.

One service every two hours; the others extend to Knaresborough and York. Which makes it even less value for money.

However: wasn't/isn't there a plan to redouble the single track elements between Knaresborough and York? If so you could run Leeds - Harrogate - Ripon, Leeds - Harrogate - Knaresborough - York and York - Knaresborough - Harrogate (reverse) - Ripon. An hourly direct service from Ripon to Leeds and York, hourly with a change at Harrogate and half-hourly to Harrogate. And maintaining the existing service provision (I think).

 

[Starmill]

One service every two hours; the others extend to Knaresborough and York. Which makes it even less value for money.

However: wasn't/isn't there a plan to redouble the single track elements between Knaresborough and York? If so you could run Leeds - Harrogate - Ripon, Leeds - Harrogate - Knaresborough - York and York - Knaresborough - Harrogate (reverse) - Ripon. An hourly direct service from Ripon to Leeds and York, hourly with a change at Harrogate and half-hourly to Harrogate. And maintaining the existing service provision (I think).

There is 1tph from Leeds to Harrogate that only calls at Horsforth and Hornbeam Park, in addition to Leeds to Knaresborough and Leeds to York all stations.

 

[YorksLad12]

There is 1tph from Leeds to Harrogate that only calls at Horsforth and Hornbeam Park, in addition to Leeds to Knaresborough and Leeds to York all stations.

My bad. The LNER extension every two hours (normally) which alternates with the Northern service confused me (not, admittedly, difficult). Treat those as extras and the rest still holds, I think.

 

[A0]

I sometimes wonder if reinstating King's Lynn to Spalding and KL to Dereham wouldn't provide a useful route, especially if Hunstanton was reinstated. Provides a proper east/west route into and out of East Anglia.
I think the biggest problem with a lot of these proposals is that they are considered in isolation. Really what's needed is a thorough review of what the rail system is suppose to achieve, and then reshape it to deliver that vision. That might include some closures as well as some openings.

Would make precisely no difference to the journeys I was talking about though.

And its worth remembering KL - Spalding was a long, pre-Beeching closure which occurred in 1959.

Kings Lynn to Dereham, though Beeching era, actually wasn't a Beeching closure, instead that was entirely a BR one.

Either way most of East Anglia has a reasonably good route in / out via Ely which heads to the key destinations of Norwich / Ipswich (for passenger) Felixstowe and Harwich (freight). The bigger thing to fix is Ely to unlock more capacity there - which won't be cheap (prob the same as reinstating a chunk of the lines from Kings Lynn, but will offer much better benefits.

 

[37424]

The intention is su[

My bad. The LNER extension every two hours (normally) which alternates with the Northern service confused me (not, admittedly, difficult). Treat those as extras and the rest still holds, I think.

Its supposed to be a 4 trains per frequency Leeds to Harrogate, but Northern have yet to fill the gap on the alternate hours when the LNER service doesn't run. That could give the opportunity to run 2 trains per hour to Ripon although it would need the LNER service to be extended to Ripon. Alternatively if you ran an hourly service from Leeds to Ripon in conjunction with an hourly Harrogate to Ripon shuttle I expect that would give an acceptable service. Obviously Ripon is the largest City without a Rail service, that would just leave Wells, and the 2 Welsh Cities which are the size of villages.

 

[trebor79]

Would make precisely no difference to the journeys I was talking about though.

And its worth remembering KL - Spalding was a long, pre-Beeching closure which occurred in 1959.

Kings Lynn to Dereham, though Beeching era, actually wasn't a Beeching closure, instead that was entirely a BR one.

Either way most of East Anglia has a reasonably good route in / out via Ely which heads to the key destinations of Norwich / Ipswich (for passenger) Felixstowe and Harwich (freight). The bigger thing to fix is Ely to unlock more capacity there - which won't be cheap (prob the same as reinstating a chunk of the lines from Kings Lynn, but will offer much better benefits.

The more general point is that the only rail routes out of East Anglia are via London or via Ely.
Another, more direct route would be very useful.
To get to Birmingham, for example, is just not practical by rail. You can drive it in half the time, and by rail going via either route takes the same amount of time.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm going to stick my neck out and say, if the project was to be built, the most likely solution would involve some minor changes to the road network to allow a single track to be laid alongside the current A4390 - which isn't entirely daft given that the road in question isn't - so far as I can see on Google Maps - really a key artery into Stratford - it's more of an additional/alternative route to get to the A3400 just outside Stratford.

It’s effectively part of the Stratford Southern ‘bypass’ - enabling traffic from the south / south east to get across Stratford without going through the middle of town (which is always, always busy). The road was solid this morning.

 

[Bald Rick]

The more general point is that the only rail routes out of East Anglia are via London or via Ely.
Another, more direct route would be very useful.
To get to Birmingham, for example, is just not practical by rail. You can drive it in half the time, and by rail going via either route takes the same amount of time.

Kings Lynn to Spalding would be no use for that.