Newbury & District

[heathrowrail]

A thread about Newbury & District buses. Has anyone else used them and what did you think? Overall I find the company a bit weird, it operates as an independent but is part of Reading buses, the drivers drive like maniacs and the whole network seems a bit disfunctional.

 

[Chris 76]

Could you explain more, particularly 'the network seems disfunctional'? I've never travelled by bus in that area but will sometime. I like the area and countryside, and have an interest in Alder Valley-which definitely merited the description 'disfunctional' as perhaps the National Bus Company's oddest subsidiary.
Newbury and District must be quite a fragile outfit, operating mainly council-supported routes in very unpromising bus territory. Reading Buses has probably saved it, and it would only take the loss of some council tenders to finish it off. If that happened, Reading Buses could still operate the main Newbury-Reading corridor and Newbury town services with a Newbury outstation. Hard to imagine who might be interested in buying N&D if RB wanted to sell it. There's no mid-size regional like Centrebus in the area. The most likely taker would be GoAhead, who could tack it onto Swindon Buses or Thames Travel. Possibly Stagecoach, who reach Newbury from Basingstoke and Andover, but they're hardly interested in small town and deeply rural operations currently.
One of the fascinating things about Alder Valley is how it kept buses running in very affluent territory through the 70s and 80s, thanks to hefty council subsidies. Several Newbury and District routes are little changed from AV, like Newbury to Hungerford via Inkpen, and up to Lambourn. Shame the back roads route from Newbury to Reading via Bucklebury is no more.

 

[heathrowrail]

Could you explain more, particularly 'the network seems disfunctional'? I've never travelled by bus in that area but will sometime. I like the area and countryside, and have an interest in Alder Valley-which definitely merited the description 'disfunctional' as perhaps the National Bus Company's oddest subsidiary.
Newbury and District must be quite a fragile outfit, operating mainly council-supported routes in very unpromising bus territory. Reading Buses has probably saved it, and it would only take the loss of some council tenders to finish it off. If that happened, Reading Buses could still operate the main Newbury-Reading corridor and Newbury town services with a Newbury outstation. Hard to imagine who might be interested in buying N&D if RB wanted to sell it. There's no mid-size regional like Centrebus in the area. The most likely taker would be GoAhead, who could tack it onto Swindon Buses or Thames Travel. Possibly Stagecoach, who reach Newbury from Basingstoke and Andover, but they're hardly interested in small town and deeply rural operations currently.
One of the fascinating things about Alder Valley is how it kept buses running in very affluent territory through the 70s and 80s, thanks to hefty council subsidies. Several Newbury and District routes are little changed from AV, like Newbury to Hungerford via Inkpen, and up to Lambourn. Shame the back roads route from Newbury to Reading via Bucklebury is no more.

I doubt the council would axe bus routes. If anything they seem to have plenty of money as every Saturday between now and Christmas all the buses are free in West Berkshire, yet there is no money to extend the 6 to Didcot or Oxford? In terms of disfunctions tickets for example are very weird; you can buy a Newbury & Thatcham day ticket and a Connect ticket for all of West Berkshire, but there is no sole day ticket for just Newbury. The 3 takes a weird route around St George's Avenue, Newbury, before going to Hungerford, whilst the 2 being the more local route goes straight through the town centre and then up the same road. It would make sense too swap these two routes around so a lot of the elderly that live around here could get to Tesco & the retail park without having to walk.

Having spoken to Reading Buses Managing Director, they don't seem to want to change much of the network because it's council subsidised, yet in Devon or Cornwall those operators seem to have no issues changing council subsidised routes. I doubt RB want to sell Newbury as they only bought it 3 1/2 years ago and seem to find it a useful dumping ground for their Streetlites which, I'm told, they regret buying.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I doubt the council would axe bus routes, if anything they seem to have plenty of money as every Saturday between now and Christmas all the buses are free in West Berkshire. Yet there is no money to extend the 6 to Didcot or Oxford? In terms of disfunctions tickets for example are very weird you can buy a Newbury & Thatcham day ticket and a Connect ticket for all of West Berkshire but there is no sole day ticket for just Newbury. The 3 takes a weird route around St George's Avenue, Newbury before going to Hungerford whilst the 2 being the more local route goes straight through the town centre and then up the same road. It would make sense too swap these two routes around so a lot of the elderly that live around here could get to Tesco & the retail park without having to walk.

Having spoken to RB MD they don't seem to want to change much of the network because it's council subsidised yet in Devon or Cornwall those operators seem to have no issues changing council subsidised routes. I doubt RB want to sell Newbury as they only bought it 3 1/2 years ago and seem to find it a useful dumping ground for their Streetlites which I'm told they regret buying.

I have to confess that it's not an area/operation I know especially well. However, I think it's always been a tricky area - quite affluent but also really quite rural especially to the North and West. I seem to recall it was always Alder Valley's rural backwater and same with BeeLine. Of course, Reading bought Kenavon Drive (Reading) and Newbury depots from Beeline (Q Drive) and think they found it tough so closed much of the operation down except the Vodafone work. It was a surprise when they did purchase it again!

I seem to recall that Newbury to Oxford has been tried before (X34?) in both the early 1980s and in the late 1990s. You could extend the 6 to Chilton and create a link but not certain how popular that would be.

Also, operators get criticised for a myriad of tickets (and rightly so on occasion) so a Newbury and Thatcham ticket is still fairly local and probably having a Newbury only one might be considered one too many?

 

[Roger1973]

Having spoken to Reading Buses Managing Director, they don't seem to want to change much of the network because it's council subsidised, yet in Devon or Cornwall those operators seem to have no issues changing council subsidised routes

I don't know the specifics, but if they are council contracted routes, it would be up to the council to agree an operator doing something different to what was contracted. Some councils are more open than others to this sort of thing, either as 'alternative bids' at tendering stage or as a review mid contract.

Some councils are reluctant to change anything, as even if a change might benefit some people, it will be the ones who are inconvenienced by the change that will be on to their local councillor and the local newspaper.

I doubt RB want to sell Newbury as they only bought it 3 1/2 years ago and seem to find it a useful dumping ground for their Streetlites which, I'm told, they regret buying.

The other strand to RB buying (and wanting to hang on to) N+D may also be the question of whether they would want one of the big groups to have a base that close to Reading...

 

[markymark2000]

I doubt the council would axe bus routes. If anything they seem to have plenty of money as every Saturday between now and Christmas all the buses are free in West Berkshire, yet there is no money to extend the 6 to Didcot or Oxford?

County Borders. It would provide basically no benefit for West Berkshire nor Oxfordshire council and so an extension would have to be a commercial one. Sadly, Reading Buses nor Thames Travel/Oxford Bus Company want to trial it commercially despite it being a no brainer.

Also sadly, seems like the science park which funds a few services around Chilton, doesn't fancy a service linking to Newbury.

The 3 takes a weird route around St George's Avenue, Newbury, before going to Hungerford, whilst the 2 being the more local route goes straight through the town centre and then up the same road. It would make sense too swap these two routes around so a lot of the elderly that live around here could get to Tesco & the retail park without having to walk.

I would put this down to the fact that the 2 is run by a single bus with only 7 minutes layover per hour. Diverting via St Georges Ave would take around 2 extra minutes each way (based on the current timetables). This would reduce the layover on route 2 down to 3 minutes per hour which is a recipe for disaster. It would kill the reliability.

 

[JonathanH]

Sadly, Reading Buses nor Thames Travel/Oxford Bus Company want to trial it commercially despite it being a no brainer.

Newbury to Didcot or Oxford services have been tried multiple times and never stuck, so they aren't a 'no brainer'.

Reading Buses 216 WOI3005 (G683KNW)

Back in the mid 1990s Reading Buses held several open days at their former Bee Line depot in Kenavon Drive, used at the time as an engineering base. Seen at the October 1994 open day is Reading Buses MCW Metrorider DP26F 216 WOI3005. This bus had been new as an Optare demonstrator registered...

www.flickr.com

https://www.transportpasttimes.co.u...-oxford-southampton-x34-service-handbill.html

1984 City of Oxford joint Alder Valley Hampshire Bus Handbill

https://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/230504.htm

Service 9 (Newbury - Harwell - Didcot) (Mon-Sat)
One jny each way on this West Berkshire contracted operation is currently diverted to serve West Hagbourne and Coscote. These villages will, in future have an improved service provided as part of modified route 134 (renumbered 94) and therefore this 9 diversion is discontinued. Instead nearly all 9 jnys will be diverted to loop round Chilton village giving broadly a two-hourly link to both Didcot and Newbury. There will be a new jny at 06.50 Chilton - Didcot on service 9. Certain peak jnys will continue to be provided on route 134(94) to/from Chilton. Service 6 (Didcot - Newbury on the alternate hour to service 9) is unchanged and will continue to stop just outside Chilton on the A34 slip road. This meets the request by Chilton parish for a more direct route to/from Didcot and restores the Newbury link from the centre of the village, lost in October 2003 when service N1 was withdrawn.

Services 6 and 9 are operated Newbury Buses, new service 94 by Abingdon Taxis.

 

[busestrains]

I seem to remember that up until a couple of years ago Reading Buses had two separate bus operators in the Newbury area called Kennections and Newbury & District but it seems that the Kennections operations have been entirely merged in to Newbury & District recently. It always seemed strange that two small operators that were owned by the same operator existed. It makes sense that they have now been merged together.

 

[markymark2000]

Newbury to Didcot or Oxford services have been tried multiple times and never stuck, so they aren't a 'no brainer'.

Reading Buses 216 WOI3005 (G683KNW)

Back in the mid 1990s Reading Buses held several open days at their former Bee Line depot in Kenavon Drive, used at the time as an engineering base. Seen at the October 1994 open day is Reading Buses MCW Metrorider DP26F 216 WOI3005. This bus had been new as an Optare demonstrator registered...

www.flickr.com

https://www.transportpasttimes.co.u...-oxford-southampton-x34-service-handbill.html

https://www.oxford-chiltern-bus-page.co.uk/230504.htm

So one post from 1984 and another from 2004. The bus network and what people want is very different to back then. Didcot has expanded massively in recent years both with more houses and more work opportunities (and some businesses in the area supporting buses a lot more). Buses up to Didcot would create links which previously people may not have used but with new residents brings people wanting different journey opportunities.

I can't say for the 2 previous iterations which you note but Reading Buses and Thames Travel are known for higher quality operations and have networks at one end of the route to offer connections. This could go some way in favour of a service.

 

[JonathanH]

Didcot has expanded massively in recent years both with more houses and more work opportunities (and some businesses in the area supporting buses a lot more). Buses up to Didcot would create links which previously people may not have used but with new residents brings people wanting different journey opportunities.

Absolutely, Didcot has expanded and Newbury also. The difficulty is what is in between. All fairly rural and car dependant. Harwell looks promising as somewhere in between. Guess the difficulty is that Didcot has a proper link to Harwell so Newbury & District don't have interest in running on to Didcot and the proper links from Didcot to Harwell don't naturally run further south.

 

[markymark2000]

Absolutely, Didcot has expanded and Newbury also. The difficulty is what is in between. All fairly rural and car dependant. Harwell looks promising as somewhere in between. Guess the difficulty is that Didcot has a proper link to Harwell so Newbury & District don't have interest in running on to Didcot and the proper links from Didcot to Harwell don't naturally run further south.

I agree, the difficulty is in between and I agree that no one is going to want to duplicate over others networks.
The options for such a link would be 2 councils, Harwell and bus operators all throwing their heads together to make it work. Sadly in this world, this is likely to be a pipe dream. God forbid councils work together and work with private companies to get a half decent service.

The other option would be one takes a commercial hit. Reading don't like competing with anyone though, even if the route isn't there to extract revenue from someone else and build upon the network, Reading don't like going into other peoples areas. Oxford Bus Company/Thames Travel are unlikely to take the hit because as you say, between Harwell and Newbury is basically nothing. IF Vodaphone were to permit buses to their site, that would go a long way as you've then got another major employer en route which would likely provide a fair amount of patronage. Other than that though, you are solely reliant upon demand to/from Newbury to cover the costs of the additional bus.


If everyone worked together though, amazing things could happen rather than letting the network slowly die off and all of the new residents getting their journeys set in stone and then trying to encourage them out of their car.

 

[duncombec]

I agree, the difficulty is in between and I agree that no one is going to want to duplicate over others networks.
The options for such a link would be 2 councils, Harwell and bus operators all throwing their heads together to make it work. Sadly in this world, this is likely to be a pipe dream. God forbid councils work together and work with private companies to get a half decent service.

Unfortunately, you've picked the wrong horse to flog here. I did some googling to see if I could find more about the history of this clearly unloved (and unsurprisingly so) corridor, and came across multiple references in September '21 to plans to seek funding for a new service between Newbury and Oxford, e.g. https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...turistic-hydrogen-buses-could-create-21842071

A new 'science highway' could be created in Berkshire, providing a direct transport link between Oxford and Newbury.

West Berkshire Council is working with councils in Oxfordshire on the proposal for a new bus route, an idea spearheaded by Newbury MP Laura Farris.


She says the plan, which would include the country’s first ever hydrogen powered bus, will need around £150k from West Berkshire, match funded by the Oxfordshire authorities. [...]

Of course, it could be started as a regular route, but I'm guessing this is an intelligent bid knowing that anything "normal" isn't going to get a look in for funding, and it has to be innovative. There were lots of surveys and reports, but I haven't looked further to find out if there is an update.

The other option would be one takes a commercial hit. Reading don't like competing with anyone though, even if the route isn't there to extract revenue from someone else and build upon the network, Reading don't like going into other peoples areas. Oxford Bus Company/Thames Travel are unlikely to take the hit because as you say, between Harwell and Newbury is basically nothing.

Is reading not still majority owned by the local authority? I don't think it's shockingly surprising that Reading are less than keen on taking wild commercial punts over territory that on the previous occasions it's been tried has been thin to say the least, in areas well beyond their operating area. Other parts of ceremonial Berkshire seem quite OK, or something with a link to the core area (e.g. Greenline), but this doesn't have "rolling in the money" written on it. Why would Oxford Bus and Thames Travel, who already run an extensive network of local services, want to disrupt that, or add to it, for the same reason?

IF Vodaphone were to permit buses to their site, that would go a long way as you've then got another major employer en route which would likely provide a fair amount of patronage. Other than that though, you are solely reliant upon demand to/from Newbury to cover the costs of the additional bus.

Any evidence for this, or have you just stuck a pin in a map and assumed that Vodafone employees desire to have a bus from elsewhere? I *think* even the local area contracted buses are still somewhat reduced from their height.

If everyone worked together though, amazing things could happen rather than letting the network slowly die off and all of the new residents getting their journeys set in stone and then trying to encourage them out of their car.

They could, yes. But it could also be a massive waste of cash which the industry can ill afford at this time. Operators such as Oxford Bus/Thames Travel and Reading Buses are fairly well plugged in to their area, and if aren't going to ignore opportunities because they can't be bothered. But of course, there are many enthusiasts who are keen to bash operators for trying something they consider ridiculous because "there clearly won't be any passengers", yet at the same time are wrong for not trying something where there "clearly won't be any passengers" because it fills some imagined gap in the network (e.g. Go Cornwall)

Example past timetable: https://hepwww.pp.rl.ac.uk/groups/ukdmc/HCSC0407.pdf

 

[richard13]

Newbury to Didcot/Oxford
The first question has to be why would you want to spend time doing that journey? Why not Reading if it is not in Newbury anyway.
Is there a bus sized volume of passengers? Unlikely
Is there an alternative? Yes, Train (or slower bus) - frequent service all day to Reading and then frequent and often fast to many places.
Would you travel to Didcot for work? If you are low paid Newbury and Reading are probably adequate and easy to get to even for shift hours, otherwise you commute by car, door to door when you need to and the bus will never compete.

This area is not known for its poverty - car and train are faster and more comfortable than the bus for most purposes.

Newbury and District is a historical operation - it only needs 8 buses for the off-peak timetable - 1 bus per route, 1a and 1c have 1 each and 8/9 share 1. They are all contracts to West Berkshire except 3C (?). It is very tied in to West Berkshire council.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Unfortunately, you've picked the wrong horse to flog here. I did some googling to see if I could find more about the history of this clearly unloved (and unsurprisingly so) corridor, and came across multiple references in September '21 to plans to seek funding for a new service between Newbury and Oxford, e.g. https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/r...turistic-hydrogen-buses-could-create-21842071



Of course, it could be started as a regular route, but I'm guessing this is an intelligent bid knowing that anything "normal" isn't going to get a look in for funding, and it has to be innovative. There were lots of surveys and reports, but I haven't looked further to find out if there is an update.


Is reading not still majority owned by the local authority? I don't think it's shockingly surprising that Reading are less than keen on taking wild commercial punts over territory that on the previous occasions it's been tried has been thin to say the least, in areas well beyond their operating area. Other parts of ceremonial Berkshire seem quite OK, or something with a link to the core area (e.g. Greenline), but this doesn't have "rolling in the money" written on it. Why would Oxford Bus and Thames Travel, who already run an extensive network of local services, want to disrupt that, or add to it, for the same reason?


Any evidence for this, or have you just stuck a pin in a map and assumed that Vodafone employees desire to have a bus from elsewhere? I *think* even the local area contracted buses are still somewhat reduced from their height.


They could, yes. But it could also be a massive waste of cash which the industry can ill afford at this time. Operators such as Oxford Bus/Thames Travel and Reading Buses are fairly well plugged in to their area, and if aren't going to ignore opportunities because they can't be bothered. But of course, there are many enthusiasts who are keen to bash operators for trying something they consider ridiculous because "there clearly won't be any passengers", yet at the same time are wrong for not trying something where there "clearly won't be any passengers" because it fills some imagined gap in the network (e.g. Go Cornwall)

Example past timetable: https://hepwww.pp.rl.ac.uk/groups/ukdmc/HCSC0407.pdf

Very good summary of the issues. For my two-penneth and, as I say, I don't know the areas' bus services well (though I know the territory a little from cycling there)...

Extending the 6 to Didcot/Oxford - this is currently a single bus contract running back and forth. It could be extended to Didcot and just about retain a two hour cycle but it would be tight, but you would have to lose the extension to Newbury station. Extending it to Oxford would blow the timetable apart and would require additional vehicle. Moreover, assuming that we'd have an express from West Ilsley to Oxford, that would probably be c.35-40 mins so very nearly 75-80 mins on a vehicle that would be appropriate for the route?

A new service - well, unless some pot of money comes from a developer to link Harwell with Newbury, I really don't how that will happen. Remember that Newbury is a relatively small (33k inhabitants) and affluent market town.

Also, it's been mentioned how much places like Didcot and Harwell have grown...

Didcot has expanded massively in recent years both with more houses and more work opportunities (and some businesses in the area supporting buses a lot more). Buses up to Didcot would create links which previously people may not have used but with new residents brings people wanting different journey opportunities.

The fact is that developments like Milton Park and Harwell have led to enhanced bus services. There was, I believe, some s.106 pump priming and perhaps still is?

Doing some research and going back 25 years, what is now the hourly 33 Wallingford - Didcot - Abingdon - Oxford was two separate routes; to Wallingford was 4 offpeak journeys, whilst to Oxford was 2/3 per day (and forget eve/Sun). There was no fast Oxford to Didcot link. The Didcot to Wantage corridor is also enhanced.

Clearly there are people who will travel quickly up the A34 from Newbury to places like Harwell and Didcot but just not in sufficient numbers to justify a bus service. The 6 performs a social necessary function but to extend it across the county boundary will also incur extra costs and to what end? And for the benefit of how many? I don't think it's a no brainer

To the north and west of Newbury, there's a wide hinterland of very thinly populated, well heeled territory which is reliant on supported services. Talking about it all, makes me intrigued to have a trip out that way... one for 2023 methinks.

 

[Mwanesh]

Newbury & District was acquired by Reading Buses in 2018.
Back then Newbury and District was not owned by Reading Buses. They were only merged when Newbury came under Reading Buses ownership in 2018.

 

[padbus]

An Oxford-Newbury service was started in September 1945 operated jointly by City of Oxford and Newbury & District. The latter was, at that time, part of the Red & White group but was taken over by Thames Valley when services were rationalised after Red & White came under state control. I have a 1966 City of Oxford timetable book which shows that the service ran hourly and took 1hour 40 minutes. The route was numbered 12 by City of Oxford and 112 by Thames Valley and was operated by double deckers. All this was, of course, before the A34 became the fast dual carriageway it is today. I think the service contined running until it was extended to Southampton as the X34.

 

[markymark2000]

Extending the 6 to Didcot/Oxford - this is currently a single bus contract running back and forth. It could be extended to Didcot and just about retain a two hour cycle but it would be tight, but you would have to lose the extension to Newbury station. Extending it to Oxford would blow the timetable apart and would require additional vehicle. Moreover, assuming that we'd have an express from West Ilsley to Oxford, that would probably be c.35-40 mins so very nearly 75-80 mins on a vehicle that would be appropriate for the route?

Extending to Didcot is as I have said, the easier one to do though ideally, it would be merged with one of the existing contract routes to Harwell so that the route has more purpose and isn't reliant upon new passengers, it can use existing passengers from the 6 and the Harwell-Didcot tender and that cushions the blow while new passenger demand builds up.

Oxford would be a straight no no without being merged into an existing Harwell-Oxford service like the ST1. The financials wouldn't stack up one bit as just the 6 extending.

Clearly there are people who will travel quickly up the A34 from Newbury to places like Harwell and Didcot but just not in sufficient numbers to justify a bus service. The 6 performs a social necessary function but to extend it across the county boundary will also incur extra costs and to what end? And for the benefit of how many? I don't think it's a no brainer

I think sadly, this is where we disagree. Exact demand for a bus between these places can't be proven until a service is in place and someone has tried hard to make it viable (not just quietly extending it and then cutting it 3 months later because people didn't jump out of their car on day 1 and all flock to the bus). Given the amount of workplaces along the A34 though with Harwell, Milton Park and Vodaphone, I think there will be sufficient numbers but it would involve everyone working together. That is where the issue is.

Additional costs would be minimal, if there even are additional costs. As I say, merging services would save on a lot of costs.

If someone goes it alone and just expects instant results, I will fail. I have no doubt about it. Such a route would have to be primerilly led by it being an employment link. Leisure (shopping) links second.
Harwell employs 7,000 people (plus has 10,000 visitors per year) with plans to get 15,000 people employed on site by 2027. Vodaphone did employ around 4,500 people at Newbury (how many are now in the office though I don't know however given they reducing from 7 to 4 buildings at Newbury, I'd guess that a good number of people are still on site). Plus around 9,000 people at Milton Park. That's just 3 sites with over 20,000 people working there or visiting. To claim that 'there is not sufficient numbers' I think is just daft. This is before you take into account any other workplaces or leisure activities. There is huge potential.

 

[cactustwirly]

Extending to Didcot is as I have said, the easier one to do though ideally, it would be merged with one of the existing contract routes to Harwell so that the route has more purpose and isn't reliant upon new passengers, it can use existing passengers from the 6 and the Harwell-Didcot tender and that cushions the blow while new passenger demand builds up.

Oxford would be a straight no no without being merged into an existing Harwell-Oxford service like the ST1. The financials wouldn't stack up one bit as just the 6 extending.


I think sadly, this is where we disagree. Exact demand for a bus between these places can't be proven until a service is in place and someone has tried hard to make it viable (not just quietly extending it and then cutting it 3 months later because people didn't jump out of their car on day 1 and all flock to the bus). Given the amount of workplaces along the A34 though with Harwell, Milton Park and Vodaphone, I think there will be sufficient numbers but it would involve everyone working together. That is where the issue is.

Additional costs would be minimal, if there even are additional costs. As I say, merging services would save on a lot of costs.

If someone goes it alone and just expects instant results, I will fail. I have no doubt about it. Such a route would have to be primerilly led by it being an employment link. Leisure (shopping) links second.
Harwell employs 7,000 people (plus has 10,000 visitors per year) with plans to get 15,000 people employed on site by 2027. Vodaphone did employ around 4,500 people at Newbury (how many are now in the office though I don't know however given they reducing from 7 to 4 buildings at Newbury, I'd guess that a good number of people are still on site). Plus around 9,000 people at Milton Park. That's just 3 sites with over 20,000 people working there or visiting. To claim that 'there is not sufficient numbers' I think is just daft. This is before you take into account any other workplaces or leisure activities. There is huge potential.

I disagree, most of these people will drive and it will be difficult for the bus to be competitive with the car.
I can get the bus to work, but I don't because it is too expensive, and Reading Buses provide such a shoddy service anyway it isn't worth the hassle.
I now lift share with a colleague because they are fed up with the bus...

 

[markymark2000]

I disagree, most of these people will drive and it will be difficult for the bus to be competitive with the car.

I mean, if that was the case, Harwell Campus and Milton Park would have stopped their funding public transport by now and Vodafone would have stopped their closed door service too.

I can get the bus to work, but I don't because it is too expensive, and Reading Buses provide such a shoddy service anyway it isn't worth the hassle.
I now lift share with a colleague because they are fed up with the bus...

Somewhat surprising given Reading has a generally good reputation. Is this

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Extending to Didcot is as I have said, the easier one to do though ideally, it would be merged with one of the existing contract routes to Harwell so that the route has more purpose and isn't reliant upon new passengers, it can use existing passengers from the 6 and the Harwell-Didcot tender and that cushions the blow while new passenger demand builds up.

Oxford would be a straight no no without being merged into an existing Harwell-Oxford service like the ST1. The financials wouldn't stack up one bit as just the 6 extending.


I think sadly, this is where we disagree. Exact demand for a bus between these places can't be proven until a service is in place and someone has tried hard to make it viable (not just quietly extending it and then cutting it 3 months later because people didn't jump out of their car on day 1 and all flock to the bus). Given the amount of workplaces along the A34 though with Harwell, Milton Park and Vodaphone, I think there will be sufficient numbers but it would involve everyone working together. That is where the issue is.

Additional costs would be minimal, if there even are additional costs. As I say, merging services would save on a lot of costs.

If someone goes it alone and just expects instant results, I will fail. I have no doubt about it. Such a route would have to be primerilly led by it being an employment link. Leisure (shopping) links second.
Harwell employs 7,000 people (plus has 10,000 visitors per year) with plans to get 15,000 people employed on site by 2027. Vodaphone did employ around 4,500 people at Newbury (how many are now in the office though I don't know however given they reducing from 7 to 4 buildings at Newbury, I'd guess that a good number of people are still on site). Plus around 9,000 people at Milton Park. That's just 3 sites with over 20,000 people working there or visiting. To claim that 'there is not sufficient numbers' I think is just daft. This is before you take into account any other workplaces or leisure activities. There is huge potential.

Harwell and Milton Park are major employers - that's why the services from Wantage and Didcot and Oxford have been enhanced. They are close enough and/or of sufficient size and it's why places like Didcot have expanded massively in recent years. In fact, it was quite a shock to discover that Abingdon has a larger population than Newbury!

If you look at the extending the 6 option. End to end would be roughly 85 mins (Ser 6 - Newbury to West Ilsley 44 mins, West Ilsley to Harwell Campus - guestimate 12 mins? for the 4.3 miles, Ser 98 - Harwell Campus to Didcot 28 mins). Do we really think that with journey times like that - nearly an hour to Harwell, nearly 90 mins to Didcot, that it would prove attractive? Especially when it's a two hourly frequency and that you can drive it in 30 mins?

 

[duncombec]

I think sadly, this is where we disagree. Exact demand for a bus between these places can't be proven until a service is in place and someone has tried hard to make it viable (not just quietly extending it and then cutting it 3 months later because people didn't jump out of their car on day 1 and all flock to the bus). Given the amount of workplaces along the A34 though with Harwell, Milton Park and Vodaphone, I think there will be sufficient numbers but it would involve everyone working together. That is where the issue is.

True to an extent - but employers do know there their employees live, and will have an idea whether it is worth banging a drum about it. Serving Vodafone also brings with it a problem of ensuring you adequately serve Donnington, as there is no easy route that enables you to serve Donnington and Vodafone without a lot of doubling back somewhere.

I'll repeat what I said in my previous message: both "Go Ahead Oxford" and Reading Buses are in tune with their operating area, far more so than a big group with bean counters in faraway offices. If they haven't tried anything, then it seems highly likely that there is nothing to try. You might like to look at the network at large. Aside from "town services" and the link to Reading, the most frequent non-tendered service out of town is only hourly, to Basingstoke (no longer with shorts to Kingsclere). Andover is served four times a day through similarly sparse territory.

If someone goes it alone and just expects instant results, I will fail. I have no doubt about it. Such a route would have to be primerilly led by it being an employment link. Leisure (shopping) links second.
Harwell employs 7,000 people (plus has 10,000 visitors per year) with plans to get 15,000 people employed on site by 2027. Vodaphone did employ around 4,500 people at Newbury (how many are now in the office though I don't know however given they reducing from 7 to 4 buildings at Newbury, I'd guess that a good number of people are still on site). Plus around 9,000 people at Milton Park. That's just 3 sites with over 20,000 people working there or visiting. To claim that 'there is not sufficient numbers' I think is just daft. This is before you take into account any other workplaces or leisure activities. There is huge potential.

Here is the problem with a mathematical calculation only. Where do those people live? What direction are they coming from? If 8,500 of those working at Milton Park come from Oxfordshire, what use is a bus service from Newbury to them? What are the shift patterns/office hours like? What if there is overtime? How about if you have an emergency and need to travel home? Do you want to wait an hour after you finish at 5 for the bus what doesn't go until 6:15 to also pick up those who finish at 6? A bus running three or four times a day isn't any good if you have to take alternative options twice a week.

I know no more about this area that you seem to (i.e. from afar), but it seems to me this is somewhere akin to throwing large amounts of your already sparse cash out of a sixth floor window in broad daylight and hoping you can run down the stairs and pick it up again before anyone else gets to any.

I mean, if that was the case, Harwell Campus and Milton Park would have stopped their funding public transport by now and Vodafone would have stopped their closed door service too.

Not at all. They could be putting their public transport funding towards areas they know their staff are travelling from. If payroll tells then 5% of employees live in Newbury, and 95% live in Oxfordshire, they are obviously going to put their money towards Oxfordshire.

 

[cactustwirly]

I mean, if that was the case, Harwell Campus and Milton Park would have stopped their funding public transport by now and Vodafone would have stopped their closed door service too.


Somewhat surprising given Reading has a generally good reputation. Is this

The services like the 17 are ok, but it's hard to mess those up.
The ones like the 4 are atrocious, late clapped out buses, which are expensive and have very rude drivers.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Not at all. They could be putting their public transport funding towards areas they know their staff are travelling from. If payroll tells then 5% of employees live in Newbury, and 95% live in Oxfordshire, they are obviously going to put their money towards Oxfordshire.

Very true and backed up by some more statistics

• Didcot and Milton population grew from 25,231 (2001) to 26,920 (2011) to 31,357 (2021)
• Wantage population grew from 17,910 (2001) to 18,505 (2011) to 21,442 (2021)

Note that the Didcot figures exclude Great Western Park and Harwell. It's also been confirmed that planning permission will permit another 4500 new homes between Harwell and GWP (effectively merging them). So it's fair to assume that current and future employment are tilted towards local residents.

To reverse out of the Didcot cul-de-sac, and get back on topic, I'd imagine Newbury is a tough place to run buses; I think I've only visited once by bus, from Basingstoke in the days of Stagecoach stripes! However, I've visited several times (employer had offices in Thatcham that I occasionally visited) and the traffic is pretty awful.

It is geographically isolated and it's thin territory. The map below perhaps explains part of the problem... Aside from out to Hungerford (and that has the train), you have hills aka the downs (ok, not the Pennines). Upland areas = fewer villages and towns = few passengers.


Some other interesting comments drawn from the BSIP

The high percentage working in Information and Communication are perhaps better placed to work from home, with Vodafone’s UK headquarters based in Newbury. Therefore, together with a rising population age, and homes spread widely across the district, commercial bus operation is difficult.

Vodafone also has buses for the use of its employees, provided by Reading Buses, but which are not open to the general public. This network has diminished with most staff now working from home.

More interesting from within the BSIP, for which funding has been secured, comprises

Newbury to Harwell / Didcot: A proposed service has the support of Laura Farris, MP for Newbury; Harwell Campus; the Thames Valley LEP; Newbury College; local bus operators; and Oxfordshire County Council. The current public transport option from Newbury to Harwell (14 miles and 20 minutes by car) involves two trains (Newbury to Reading, Reading to Didcot), and then a bus to Harwell, a journey of at least 90 minutes. Harwell is a ‘nearby’ innovation centre of science and technology of national importance. It is well connected to Oxford, Wantage and Didcot, and the link to Newbury could be achieved by extending one of these services, thus improving accessibility to a number of work bases in south Oxfordshire for West Berkshire residents. Funding has been allocated by the DfT to enable this.

Therefore, that would point to an acknowledgement that there needs to be a faster link. You can't have a 20 min car journey vs. a 60 min rattleathon on an e200. There's also the promise of enhanced frequencies on routes plus...

Vodafone staff buses: There has been a long-standing desire from the public for these services to be included within the local bus network. With the pandemic changing working patterns, and Vodafone looking to maximise the value of its services, this is an ideal time to pursue this, although the network has reduced to only one route between Newbury and their headquarters. A new housing development adjacent to this would benefit from these buses being available filling reverse flows in the business movements, and discussions are ongoing.

So let's see what actually comes of these good intentions.

 

[markymark2000]

I'll repeat what I said in my previous message: both "Go Ahead Oxford" and Reading Buses are in tune with their operating area, far more so than a big group with bean counters in faraway offices. If they haven't tried anything, then it seems highly likely that there is nothing to try. You might like to look at the network at large. Aside from "town services" and the link to Reading, the most frequent non-tendered service out of town is only hourly, to Basingstoke (no longer with shorts to Kingsclere). Andover is served four times a day through similarly sparse territory.

I agree to some extent. Reading Buses have tended not to expand much outside of their area. It's surprising that they have kept the 703 going really. Other than that, they don't tend to venture out far and certainly avoid any kind of competition. Extending to Didcot commercially would likely spark alarm bells within Reading bus that their service overlaps GoAhead between Harwell and Didcot and that is a straight no, no for Reading. No competition anywhere if it can be helped. To be fair, looking at the state of Newbury and Thames Valley, it's clear they don't care about the outer areas that much too. Let them plod on and hope for the best. Not sure on the Reading network, I am undecided.

Here is the problem with a mathematical calculation only. Where do those people live? What direction are they coming from? If 8,500 of those working at Milton Park come from Oxfordshire, what use is a bus service from Newbury to them? What are the shift patterns/office hours like? What if there is overtime? How about if you have an emergency and need to travel home? Do you want to wait an hour after you finish at 5 for the bus what doesn't go until 6:15 to also pick up those who finish at 6? A bus running three or four times a day isn't any good if you have to take alternative options twice a week.

How easy is it for this information to get to bosses as surely some part of this comes under GDPR (or data privacy laws in general) since you're sharing where people live (even anonymised, still sharing details which people may not have consented to.
Also, by your logic, any bus running less than hourly should basically be scrapped because of all these 'what ifs'. What if the car breaks down on the way home to attend to this emergency. What if the price of petrol triples? What if your car has an MOT due. Yes there are down sides to people commuting on irregular buses but it does happen if the times work out for those people. Demand is surprised by lower frequencies, make no mistake but to basically say an infrequent bus is as good as no bus, I and many others who actually use buses would disagree!

More interesting from within the BSIP, for which funding has been secured, comprises

That's good then. Hopefully this comes to fruition sooner rather than later.

Therefore, that would point to an acknowledgement that there needs to be a faster link. You can't have a 20 min car journey vs. a 60 min rattleathon on an e200. There's also the promise of enhanced frequencies on routes plus...

Faster link is of course better, just a bit more costly. Least if there is additional funding, hopefully that will do something but I am not holding my breath though.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

How easy is it for this information to get to bosses as surely some part of this comes under GDPR (or data privacy laws in general) since you're sharing where people live (even anonymised, still sharing details which people may not have consented to.

If it's the case that you're simply asking people for where they live by wide area postcode, that really isn't going to infringe GDPR. You are going to struggle to readily identify people on that basis

Also, by your logic, any bus running less than hourly should basically be scrapped because of all these 'what ifs'. What if the car breaks down on the way home to attend to this emergency. What if the price of petrol triples? What if your car has an MOT due. Yes there are down sides to people commuting on irregular buses but it does happen if the times work out for those people. Demand is surprised by lower frequencies, make no mistake but to basically say an infrequent bus is as good as no bus, I and many others who actually use buses would disagree!

That's not what @duncombec is saying. Services that run less than hourly really aren't designed around the needs of shift or fluid working. We still see examples, and the 6 is one of those, where the service pattern can permit someone in the stereotypical 9 to 5.30 job (of old) to get to/from work in the big town. So non-driving Maureen who's worked in Boots since 1983 can get back home to Hermitage.

More likely is that it serves the needs of pass holders who can get the bus into town, do what they need to do in terms of shopping or banking or hospital or whatever. A two hourly bus service just doesn't meet the needs of workers especially if there is any fluidity in their hours.

Faster link is of course better, just a bit more costly. Least if there is additional funding, hopefully that will do something but I am not holding my breath though.

We shall see what funding is allocated but, I ask you, who is really like to spend an hour (each way) on what would frankly be an extended rural bus service (on what I recall aren't the best roads). Will anyone really wish to spend two hours/day on an e200 rather than 40 mins round trip in the car?

 

[duncombec]

How easy is it for this information to get to bosses as surely some part of this comes under GDPR (or data privacy laws in general) since you're sharing where people live (even anonymised, still sharing details which people may not have consented to.

If it's the case that you're simply asking people for where they live by wide area postcode, that really isn't going to infringe GDPR. You are going to struggle to readily identify people on that basis

I believe an employer has to know an employee's address as part of employment regulations. My reading of the GDPR, along with a bit of help from the first specific postcode-related link I came to, is that something as generic, anonymised and aggregated as the number of people living within a certain postcode (area or sector) would be perfectly acceptable. There might be small issues if there were individual people in certain areas and it was known they were the only ones, but even these could be used by grouping.

Also, by your logic, any bus running less than hourly should basically be scrapped because of all these 'what ifs'. What if the car breaks down on the way home to attend to this emergency. What if the price of petrol triples? What if your car has an MOT due. Yes there are down sides to people commuting on irregular buses but it does happen if the times work out for those people.

That's not what @duncombec is saying. Services that run less than hourly really aren't designed around the needs of shift or fluid working. We still see examples, and the 6 is one of those, where the service pattern can permit someone in the stereotypical 9 to 5.30 job (of old) to get to/from work in the big town. So non-driving Maureen who's worked in Boots since 1983 can get back home to Hermitage.

More likely is that it serves the needs of pass holders who can get the bus into town, do what they need to do in terms of shopping or banking or hospital or whatever. A two hourly bus service just doesn't meet the needs of workers especially if there is any fluidity in their hours.

We shall see what funding is allocated but, I ask you, who is really like to spend an hour (each way) on what would frankly be an extended rural bus service (on what I recall aren't the best roads). Will anyone really wish to spend two hours/day on an e200 rather than 40 mins round trip in the car?

@TheGrandWazoo has read my comments entirely in the spirit to which they were intended. There are places where an 8:30 arrival, 6pm departure would be entirely appropriate - but I don't think it is right in terms of starting a new service to multiple multi-business park with a variety of employers and shift patterns, some of which quite obviously don't keep to "office hours", and where travel patterns are already likely entrenched amongst existing workers, let alone matters of vehicle size and speed versus the car.

but to basically say an infrequent bus is as good as no bus,

Your words, not mine.

I and many others who actually use buses would disagree!

It amused me to read this on my ninth bus journey of the week... the danger of assumption!

It's clear we're not going to agree, so I'm going to pause my input there.

 

[richard13]

As usual I believe the current professional's judgement on what works, above amateurs' comments and criticisms. Reading buses has expanded into Newbury and Slough and Go Ahead Oxford has had a shot at various new services and the networks are constantly being adjusted. The current network is about the maximum that works and almost all the routes have a large operator. West Berkshire Council subsidises what buses it thinks it needs with various operators, without which there would be almost no buses.

Newbury and Didcot have never had a direct road connection and are in different river valleys and counties. Their local news, events, schools, general life, etc are completely different.

Didcot is a small town with extra housing estates and offers Newbury residents with no attractions worth a special journey. How many Newbury residents have ever been to Didcot? Newbury residents have frequent public transport to Reading and onwards as required. They have a weekly bus to Marlborough X20, but not Swindon.

Newbury could offer Didcot residents some retail and leisure opportunities, but they are well connected to Abingdon, Wallingford, Wantage plus Oxford, Reading and Swindon so why choose Newbury about which you know nothing.

Commuting to Harwell - Commuter buses are expensive to provide, unless there is an all day demand nearby and a single journey won't suffice. The local 94 through the villages south of Didcot to Harwell Campus only offers a commuter service to Didcot station and not Harwell. That suggests that away from the local housing estates and south Oxford housing, there is insufficient demand. A bus from Newbury to Harwell Campus for commuters would need to start in Thatcham and run through the houses and not start at the Wharf as the 6 does. The 6 like most local routes runs for schools before 9am and not commuters. The car is just too flexible and convenient in a spread out world. If the car gets too expensive you would be more likely to move to Didcot or Wantage or change jobs, than rely on an infrequent and subsidised bus. One rural route I know had loud squeals when the route ran out of money and stopped, from about 2 people who used it 3 days a week for work - Using tax payers money for essentially private transport is irresponsible.

The railway re-openings all have long and expensive study projects to determine if the reopening is worth the cost or just a great idea. You don't run the service and see if it is worth while - buses are cheaper, but you still study the need. The tax payer cannot afford to throw money at irrelevant projects, they have enough to do to spend it on the NHS, Schools, Social Care, etc, etc,... (The NHS could spend all our income! - it would not be difficult to do).

 

[Citistar]

Given the absence of practical North-South rail links in the area and the sparseness of population between settlements, i do wonder if there would be a viable market for a Southampton - Oxford coach service in the style of the Stagecoach Falcon route from Plymouth to Bristol. There are plenty of potential targets in between which could be included or omitted (depending on how good the existing connections are) - Winchester, Andover, Newbury, Didcot, Abingdon etc.

 

[JonathanH]

i do wonder if there would be a viable market for a Southampton - Oxford coach service in the style of the Stagecoach Falcon route from Plymouth to Bristol.

I doubt it would be viable. Falcon has two cities with a substantial population at either end and a largeish airport at one end. Southampton Airport isn't as big as Bristol Airport.

Megabus run a daily coach on the Southampton to Oxford axis, calling at Southampton Airport. Somewhat telling that it is only one a day. National Express run two, non-stop.

 

[richard13]

Given the absence of practical North-South rail links in the area and the sparseness of population between settlements, i do wonder if there would be a viable market for a Southampton - Oxford coach service in the style of the Stagecoach Falcon route from Plymouth to Bristol. There are plenty of potential targets in between which could be included or omitted (depending on how good the existing connections are) - Winchester, Andover, Newbury, Didcot, Abingdon etc.

There is a 2 hourly through train from Bournemouth, Southampton, Winchester and Basingstoke to Reading, Oxford, Birmingham and Manchester (Cross Country) with Reading to Manchester every hour change at Birmingham for Leeds, Newcastle and Edinburgh. Newbury is via Reading and Didcot via Oxford, both at least 2 an hour. There are good North- South rail links, but they don't follow the A34. Newbury and Didcot have very good train services for their size and via Reading access to most of the country frequently.

National Express offers a frequent service, but via change in London.

The Falcon's main market is Plymouth to Bristol Airport, but Exeter, Taunton and central Bristol all contribute useful traffic flows. Bristol airport is big and it's busiest time is 06:00 to 07:30 with holiday flights starting, hence the all night service.