Newbie Questions

[mallangong]

Hi,

I was told of this forum by posters on another forum that I frequent.

I have some basic questions (a lot less than I had before searching through previous threads), any advice is much appreciated.

1. I have seen posts referring to a rule book or routing manual. where is it possible to get these from? It would seem unfair to require passengers to know the rules if these are not freely available.

2. I have started to travel from Westminster (or Charring X) to Finsbury Park each day. At the moment I am getting a single in each direction and then using my Oyster card on the tube. As my single tickets say to London Terminals can I use these on the underground to get to Westminster or Charing X?

3. As an aside, why are singles from Finsbury to London more expensive than the other way round?

4. More generally, if my ticket does not get clipped, and if it still has validity, is it legal to re-use it?

Thanks,
Sammy

 

[A60K]

Hi,

I was told of this forum by posters on another forum that I frequent.

I have some basic questions (a lot less than I had before searching through previous threads), any advice is much appreciated.

1. I have seen posts referring to a rule book or routing manual. where is it possible to get these from? It would seem unfair to require passengers to know the rules if these are not freely available.

2. I have started to travel from Westminster (or Charring X) to Finsbury Park each day. At the moment I am getting a single in each direction and then using my Oyster card on the tube. As my single tickets say to London Terminals can I use these on the underground to get to Westminster or Charing X?

3. As an aside, why are singles from Finsbury to London more expensive than the other way round?

4. More generally, if my ticket does not get clipped, and if it still has validity, is it legal to re-use it?

Thanks,
Sammy

Welcome!
1. That's a can of worms - the Routing Guide is available, but not the easiest document to use. Some other information may not be in the public domain. I'm sure someone else will be along soon to expand on this!
2. Not quite sure what combination of tickets you are using here, but no, a London Terminals ticket cannot be used on the tube (apart from a few historical quirks).
3. Tickets are the same price in either direction, but the time of travel will affect the cost.
4. No. Unless you're making a legitimate break of journey and then continuing within the validity of your ticket - say, for example, stopping off at London Bridge on a single from Dartford to London Terminals and then continuing from London Bridge to London Charing Cross later in the day.

 

[Deerfold]

Hi,

2. I have started to travel from Westminster (or Charring X) to Finsbury Park each day. At the moment I am getting a single in each direction and then using my Oyster card on the tube. As my single tickets say to London Terminals can I use these on the underground to get to Westminster or Charing X?

Hi. Any particular reason you're not using your Oyster on the train?
Also, if you're doing it daily you're likely to ber cheaper getting a Travelcard.

 

[yorkie]

Hi,

I was told of this forum by posters on another forum that I frequent.

Cool, that's nice to know Welcome!

I have some basic questions (a lot less than I had before searching through previous threads), any advice is much appreciated.

Basic questions are fine, but what you think is basic can often be complicated - as is the nature of the world of railway ticketing! However complex questions are fine too!!

1. I have seen posts referring to a rule book or routing manual. where is it possible to get these from? It would seem unfair to require passengers to know the rules if these are not freely available.

There is a link to a download of the PDF version of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCoC or simply NCoC) here: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/index_custom.html also below that is the conditions for Oyster.

The Routeing Guide is here:

http://www.atoc.org/about-atoc/rail-settlement-plan/routeing-guide

There are examples there, but you can often learn more by reading the examples on this site. But start with those.

2. I have started to travel from Westminster (or Charring X) to Finsbury Park each day. At the moment I am getting a single in each direction and then using my Oyster card on the tube. As my single tickets say to London Terminals can I use these on the underground to get to Westminster or Charing X?

You cannot use a ticket to London Terminals from the North south of King's Cross / St Pancras / Moorgate. Charing Cross is a London Terminal for tickets from the South.

There may, however, be certain tickets that are valid into termini that are both North and South of the Thames, but these are rare (for example Banbury to London would be valid via Reading and thence to Waterloo to the south, Paddington to the west or via High Wycombe into Marylebone to the north. But it would cease to be valid beyond the terminal you arrive at!

So, no, as a general rule you cannot use a London Terminals ticket on the tube. There are exceptions to that, where there are parallel routes, but they won't allow you on the central tube sections.

3. As an aside, why are singles from Finsbury to London more expensive than the other way round?

According to Avantix Traveller NFM05, the price of a single on a paper ticket is £1.80 in either direction.

There are some tickets that are cheaper in one direction than the other, due to supply & demand issues (usually involving travel to London - but not within the London zones - or to airports).

Tickets within the London zones are set zonally so should be the same either direction.

4. More generally, if my ticket does not get clipped, and if it still has validity, is it legal to re-use it?

Thanks,
Sammy

The clipping of a ticket has no effect on validity whatsoever. Once a ticket has been used to your final destination it has no validity whatsoever, regardless of whether it is clipped. A ticket that has been clipped, that is used to a point short of your destination, may still be used to resume the journey (this is called a "break of journey") providing the journey permits a break of journey and providing it is completed within the period of validity, the clipping itself has no effect on validity.

 

[wintonian]

With regards to the routing guide I have read through the instructions 3/4 times and am still confused but I am slowly unpicking it, it is a very usefull tool just very complicated, so don't expect to have a quck read through and understand anything more than the concept - after time I expect most pepole will get to grips with it to a good degree.

But you can get loads of help on here.

 

[mallangong]

Hello all, thanks for for all the advice/comments so far. After a couple of unhelpful ticket sellers at Charring X I finally found one that seemed to know his stuff. I asked about travel-cards (as mentioned on here) and he suggested a Finsbury Park to Zone 1-2 for £25.80 per week.

Can anybody confirm that this will allow me on the tube from Kings Cross to tube stations in Zone 1-2 (specifically Charring X and Westminster)? If so then this would seem to be quite a saving.

Thanks,
Sammy

 

[Chris-P]

Hello all, thanks for for all the advice/comments so far. After a couple of unhelpful ticket sellers at Charring X I finally found one that seemed to know his stuff. I asked about travel-cards (as mentioned on here) and he suggested a Finsbury Park to Zone 1-2 for £25.80 per week.

Can anybody confirm that this will allow me on the tube from Kings Cross to tube stations in Zone 1-2 (specifically Charring X and Westminster)? If so then this would seem to be quite a saving.

Thanks,
Sammy

Yes, it would, you may be better off with a monthly/yearly one on an oyster card if you're doing it every day for a month though

 

[yorkie]

And if you work 5 days a week, and not Weekends, then you may want to get it to start on a Monday and have 1 month + a few extra days so that it expires on a Friday. I recommend looking at the whole year and divide it into chunks of at least 5 days.

A monthly can be extended with odd days, but a weekly cannot.

 

[Wyvern]

If he were only going to Charing X (not Westminster) from Finsbury Park would a through rail ticket not be cheaper? It would allow him to use the tube. I guess the problem is he wants the option of going to Westminster which is not also an NR station.

 

[yorkie]

If he were only going to Charing X (not Westminster) from Finsbury Park would a through rail ticket not be cheaper? It would allow him to use the tube. I guess the problem is he wants the option of going to Westminster which is not also an NR station.

A through rail paper ticket to somewhere like South Bermondsey would be £7.20 for an Anytime Return, so no.

A travelcard for 5 weeks is roughly £106 (it depends on the number of days in a month), that is £4.25 per working day. It allows many more journey opportunities for leisure at weekends at no extra cost of course.

 

[Wyvern]

A through rail paper ticket to somewhere like South Bermondsey would be £7.20 for an Anytime Return, so no.

A travelcard for 5 weeks is roughly £106 (it depends on the number of days in a month), that is £4.25 per working day. It allows many more journey opportunities for leisure at weekends at no extra cost of course.

But he isnt going to South Bermondsey. He's only going to Charing Cross. Wont the destination be U-1 ?

 

[yorkie]

But he isnt going to South Bermondsey. He's only going to Charing Cross. Wont the destination be U-1 ?

Are such fares available ?

I tried FPK to ZONE U1* LONDN (code: 0785) and this produces no fares.

A through rail ticket from one side of the Thames to the other will include LU and is cheaper than 2 x LU singles if paying by cash, you don't have to go to somewhere like South Bermondsey and can cut 'short' but it's not a good deal compared to Oyster.

TfL are trying every trick they can muster to get people to stop using daily paper tickets, so it will be cheaper for journeys wholly within London to use either Oyster PAYG or a Travelcard (with very few exceptions).

 

[Wyvern]

Are such fares available ?

I dunno.

I've just tried Finsbury Park to CHX and it gives me £7.20 same as South Bermondsey

If I remember rightly that was the fare I paid for Woking to U-1 (St Pancras) except it was single, so it seems to be some kind of minimum fare.

 

[yorkie]

If I put Charing Cross (CHX) into Avantix it just changes it to London Terminals and gives a price of £8.00 (Anytime Day Return - SDR)

Yes, according to Avantix Traveller it is cheaper to go from FPK to South Bermondsey than it is to go from FPK to London Terminals.

Oh, and as discussed previously, a destination of London Terminals does not allow travel to Charing Cross from the North (with some long distance exceptions as previously mentioned)

 

[Wyvern]

You note I put U-1 not London Terminals.

Woking to London Terminals would not let me go to St Pancras

Whether there's a U-1 from the north to Charing Cross I dont know.

Note also you cant get a U-1 from the ticket machine at Woking (and possibly not shown on Avantix?) You can only get it from the ticket office - so you have to arrive at the front entrance because of the barriers at the back.

No wonder our Newbie is confused!

I have a similar thing at Belper. The ATM has an option for Hove by FCC only at £5 cheaper. Nat Rail enqs only shows the "any permitted" (or used to)

Incidentally I'm sure the fare you quoted was only £7.20 onNate Rail Enquiries

 

[A60K]

If I put Charing Cross (CHX) into Avantix it just changes it to London Terminals and gives a price of £8.00 (Anytime Day Return - SDR)

Yes, according to Avantix Traveller it is cheaper to go from FPK to South Bermondsey than it is to go from FPK to London Terminals.

Wonder if that's because Finsbury Park to London Terminals (Kings X or Moorgate) is interavailable with the Underground and priced at LU rates - £4 cash single x 2 equals £8?

 

[Toranaga-sama]

I tried FPK to ZONE U1* LONDN (code: 0785) and this produces no fares.

You need to use ZONE U12* to cover all the zones travelled through.

 

[yorkie]

You need to use ZONE U12* to cover all the zones travelled through.

Why? CHX is in Zone 1!

If I buy a ticket from York, to Zone 1, I don't put my destination as Zone 6 because I pass through it on my way to King's Cross!

Anyway here are some interesting fares:

FPK - Zone U12* LONDN £8.00 SDR
FPK - Zone U2* LONDN £7.00 SDR
FPK - Zone London Terminals £8.00 SDR
FPK - South Bermondsey £7.20 SDR

So if going to a Zone 2 station you don't buy to Zone 2 if it's south of the Thames, you buy to Zone 12. Err, right.

However it is cheaper still to buy a ticket to a named station in Zone 2 and cut your journey short?

Does any of this actually make sense?

 

[Broken Viking]

Does any of this actually make sense?

No...It's as confusing as hell, and I havn't been able to understand the concept of how a U1*/U12* fare would be used in such a case.
Although if there's a simple way that I can extend a SVR between FNB (0260) and London (1072) to be valid to Euston, then that'd be handy to know for my next trip. Otherwise I'll just take my Oyster and jump on the bus at Waterloo insted.

Of course: This confusion for I and everybody else in this thread proves that the fares system is "working" perfectly as far as National Fail are concerned... :roll:

 

[A60K]

Why? CHX is in Zone 1!

If I buy a ticket from York, to Zone 1, I don't put my destination as Zone 6 because I pass through it on my way to King's Cross!

Anyway here are some interesting fares:

FPK - Zone U12* LONDN £8.00 SDR
FPK - Zone U2* LONDN £7.00 SDR
FPK - Zone London Terminals £8.00 SDR
FPK - South Bermondsey £7.20 SDR

Does any of this actually make sense?

The first three of those are pure Underground fares, so what is effectively the case is that you are treated as having joined the Underground at FP and not using National Rail to KX, and as FP is in Zone 2 you need Z1 and 2 to cover your journey - and I agree, it doesn't make sense to the average passenger!!

I haven' t got access to Avantix at the moment (the guy in the berth below would probably be rather annoyed if I booted up my laptop!), but I expect fares in the other direction (from South Bermondsey) would be entirely different, being National Rail although also in Zone 2!!

Here are some more interesting fares: In Berlin, you have three zones: 'A' which corresponds to everything within the NLl, ELL, WLL and SLL, 'B' which corresponds to everything up to the Greater London boundary, and 'C' which corresponds to a 5-10 mile circle surrounding the Greater London boundary.

The BVG is the equivalent of TfL, with DB running the railways. A single ticket for one zone is around €2.10, and for all zones around €2.60 - and they are valid on any mode. Single tickets can be used for 90-120 minutes, unlimited changes between mode - bus, train, underground or tram.

A day ticket is €6.50 for all three zones, and 'C' includes places equivalent to Windsor, Epsom, Dartford, Brentwood, St Albans and Watford.

Further, in the wider VBB area, a day rover ticket covering all of the Berlin transport PLUS almost the equivalent of the old NSE area (say not beyond Southampton, Salisbury or Oxford) is €27 for a group of up to five people! Or €47 for up to five people in FIRST CLASS! This includes the local transport in all the cities within the VBB area - and it's also valid on some InterCity services, as well as to Szczein in Poland and on trams there!

Sorry for all the exclamation marks, but any chance of such a simple and good value system here? No!

 

[yorkie]

Although if there's a simple way that I can extend a SVR between FNB (0260) and London (1072) to be valid to Euston, then that'd be handy to know for my next trip. Otherwise I'll just take my Oyster and jump on the bus at Waterloo insted.

Farnborough Stns - London Terminals SVRs are priced as follows:
Not Reading £24.90 SVR
Any Permitted £25.20 SVR

You can get a cross-London transfer to somewhere like Finsbury Park £26.90 Any Permitted SVR. This is only £2 or £1.70 more for 2 tube journeys, which is cheaper than Oyster.

Deduct a third if using a Railcard.

 

[mallangong]

And I thought I was asking questions that were far too simple! Somewhat confused now, is there agreement that if I purchase a FPK to Zones 1-2 travel card (£25.80) that I will be able to travel to any Zone1-2 tube station from and to FPK?

But to muddy the waters again:

Could I get an FPK to London Terminals travel card (£13.80) and use the underground to Charing Cross?

Can I load both of these travel cards onto an Oyster card?

Thanks.

 

[A60K]

A Finsbury Park to London Zones 1-2 weekly Travelcard is indeed valid to any station, rail, DLR or Underground, within Zones 1 or 2. It is also valid on all TfL bus services in London regardless of the rail zones.

Finsbury Park to London Terminals weekly is not a Travelcard, it's a rail-only season ticket, valid from FP to any station on the Moorgate branch or to Kings Cross. It is not valid to any other London Terminal.

Rail-only season tickets are not generally valid on the Underground, however in this specific case it is valid for use on the Underground to get to stations on the Moorgate branch or to Kings Cross, but to no other stations.

A Travelcard will be issued on an Oystercard if you buy it from a London Underground operated ticket office. You can't load a rail-only season ticket onto an Oystercard.

 

[Broken Viking]

Farnborough Stns - London Terminals SVRs are priced as follows:
Not Reading £24.90 SVR
Any Permitted £25.20 SVR

You can get a cross-London transfer to somewhere like Finsbury Park £26.90 Any Permitted SVR. This is only £2 or £1.70 more for 2 tube journeys, which is cheaper than Oyster. Deduct a third if using a Railcard.

Cheers Yorkie, I'll look into doing that! 8)

That said though, I don't mind how I cross London. The bus (Which is 2/3 the tube price on Oyster) takes about the same overall time from Waterloo to Euston as the Tube even if the traffic's bad, and I generally manage the walk between the two in 30-45 minutes if the network's having problems!

 

[Toranaga-sama]

Why? CHX is in Zone 1!

And Finsbury Park is in zone 2

Single and return fares between National Rail, London Underground (LU) and Docklands Light Railway (DLR) stations within the London Fare Zones Area – see map on page K5 – are priced on a zonal basis with fares determined by the zones travelled in and through, and transport modes used. Different prices apply where the through journey also includes travel on LU and/or DLR services. See ‘Rail Only Zonal Fares’ and ‘Train Tube Zonal Fares’ below for details.

‘Train Tube’ tickets are issued for through journeys to any LU/DLR station and issued to a Uzone destination. ‘Train Tube’ tickets for these journeys are issued to show all the Fare Zones travelled in or through from the station of origin. For example, a ticket for a journey between Selhurst (Zone 4) to Holborn (Zone 1) is issued SELHURST to ZONES U1234 LONDN and is valid for transfer to LU services at any interchange station on the line of route, i.e. at Balham, London Victoria, or, via Clapham Junction, at Vauxhall or London Waterloo.

If I buy a ticket from York, to Zone 1, I don't put my destination as Zone 6 because I pass through it on my way to King's Cross!

No you don't. But if you're travelling from Brighton you do!