newbee, can first great western do this?

[ady347]

Hi people,

stumbled across this forum and wonder if anyone can help. I am a carriage cleaner in the midlands and i applied for the same job with great western (but about twice the hourly rate)
i was from exeter originally and this is where the new job was based.

basically, had a interview in early november, got offered the job on the 30th november stating it was a "conditional offer of employment" subject to me passing medcial, references.....

went for a medical early december, passed everything no probs and they told me my start date would follow in the next few weeks.

Emailed me again on the 17th dec saying i should get told a start date before xmas.

gave my notice on my house, my job, schooling for our son, moved my possessions 200miles to my parents.

on the 29th of december i recieved a email stating "withdrawal of offer of employment" due to operational reasons.

i quickly rang the hr department and explained my predicament and they said management visited the site in question and after a head count decided that they didnt need any more employees!!

is their anything i can do about this, or can they just do this. I wondered if they were breaking any contract of employment between me and them or something.

 

[Matt Taylor]

They can do pretty much anything up until you sign a contract, until that point there is no legal agreement between employer and employee unfortunately.

 

[12CSVT]

If this is representative of how FGW management operate and treat their staff, then quite frankly I wouldn't trust them as far as I can throw them, whether its legal or not. Anybody who has made the effort to pass the medicals, entrance exams etc and get offered a job deserves far better than this.

Perhaps a certain gentleman called Mr Bob Crow might be interested to hear about this.

 

[Striker]

You have to pass a medical to be a carriage cleaner? Am I missing something?

 

[Aictos]

You have to pass a medical to be a carriage cleaner? Am I missing something?

I had to pass a medical before FCC gave me the position of Train Valet Officer when I first joined otherwise known as Carriage Cleaner, I didn't need a medical when I transferred to the Platforms as my medical was still quite recent and indeed still valid.

I think there are some positions which are safety critical such as the cleaners at the outlaying locations such as Peterborough, Welwyn, Letchworth, Kings Lynn, Hertford and these who who actually work in the yard part of Hornsey such as CET work, there are cleaners based at Hornsey who stay well within the depot and don't go near the yard.

It's a pity FGW did this but they might have been able to offer a suitable alternative, the job I went for was as a Shunter but got offered the Cleaning job instead which I took as it's my way into the railway family.

 

[ady347]

well, well, well

apparantly i do have a leg to stand on!! spoke to acas, after i told them everything they said first western have breached a contract of employment and i am entitled to compensation but it will be minimal.
i have to take them to a employment tribunal or settle for an out of court settlement.
The lady said this happens quite a bit apparantly and as i passed all the conditions of employment they dont any grounds to argue the case. They seem to know their stuff, tbh i didnt think i had any rights whatsoever but that doesnt seem to be the case.

they also said even if the job was offered on a handshake and i accepted it i have rights, it doesnt have to be a signed contract anymore.

i have pts also, you have to have a medical as your crossing track, working away from platform etc.... at some stations.
if your colour blind, bad hearing etc..... your at greater risk


whos bob crow??

 

[142094]

whos bob crow??

Head of RMT union.

 

[richw]

as above yes if they have offered you the position in writing. i.e. the email confirmation of the job, then from a legal point of view they have breached contract, if you have it in writing from them its pretty much a foregone conclusion you would be entitled to some form of compensation, you've relocated 200 miles for this job, so you may be able to claim such costs back from them, if you've already resigned at your existing work, you may also have ground to claim loss of earnings, as a result of them reversing their decision,
without seeing the wording of the offer of work etc i cant say exactly what your route of claiming would be, but i'm pretty certain you have a good case against them!

 

[ady347]

for your pleasure lol, these are the 2 main emails sent to me.



subject:- Conditional Offer of Employment‏
30th November 2010


adrian,

Congratulations, you have been successful in the interview and First would like to make you a conditional offer of employment for the position of Carriage Cleaner [First Great Western].

Your offer of employment is subject to satisfactory completion of a medical (of which details will be sent separately), pre-employment checks including references and a criminal record check (if applicable), receipt of evidence of your right to work in the UK and you will also be subject to a six month probationary period.

We do not currently have a start date for you this will be communicated to you in the next few weeks.

You will be sent a contract subject to the above being satisfactory, which gives further details of your terms and conditions and you will be asked to sign your acceptance and return along with other paperwork.

Once you have notified us that you wish to accept this conditional offer, please let us know of any disability which may require us to make reasonable adjustments to the role or working environment - this will enable us to discuss these with you.

Congratulations once again.


i then went for medical on 7th december which was a 100 mile round trip and a day off work


this was the last email sent to me:-

Withdrawal of Vacancy‏
29th December 2010

Dear adrian,

Thank you for your application for a Carriage Cleaner [First Great Western] role with First.

We regret to inform you that we have received information from the manager that due to operational reasons we have had to withdrawl the above vacancies.

Unfortunately this means we will have to withdrawl the conditional offer of employment, we sincerely apologise for any inconvenience this may have caused.

We would like to retain your details on file for a six month period and you will be contacted if a similar vacancy comes up within that period and in the area that you have applied for.

If you prefer to withdraw your application, please log into your account and select "Application Submission History." Along the line which identifies this role, please select the icon which represents your withdrawal - shown as a no entry symbol.

If you are interested in any other roles with the company, you will need to make a new application when the vacancy is advertised (as you have already applied once, you will not need to provide all of your information again, but will need to respond to some questions which are specific to the role available). You can also register for a Job Alert which will allow our recruitment solution to let you know when jobs become available

 

[Striker]

You should take them to the cleaners.

 

[richw]

the first bit where it says

You will be sent a contract subject to the above being satisfactory, which gives further details of your terms and conditions and you will be asked to sign your acceptance and return along with other paperwork.

that bit is contractual on their part, so as long as the above was satisfactorily completed they've entered into a pre-contractual agreement with you, which is sufficient to take them to the cleaners (pardon the pun). you may actually have a case of unfair/ unlawful dismissal although i cant be 100% on that.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

You should take them to the cleaners.

Woeful

 

[185]

Merry Christmas indeed from Moir Lockhead & his £20m castle & herd of Angus cows.

FilthGroup established long ago they do not care less about peoples lives. One manager at Transpennine Express referred to staff as 'units' (in the financial sense) in earshot of three union men. The 'couldnt care less' attitude comes from the very top & good managers are few and far between within the company.

They have been a truly **** company to work for as proved by their behaviour when they took over North Western Trains and Arriva Transpennine. I say they should have stuck to running buses, but thats unfair on bus drivers and passengers too.

 

[12CSVT]

Merry Christmas indeed from Moir Lockhead & his £20m castle & herd of Angus cows.

FilthGroup established long ago they do not care less about peoples lives. One manager at Transpennine Express referred to staff as 'units' (in the financial sense) in earshot of three union men. The 'couldnt care less' attitude comes from the very top & good managers are few and far between within the company.

They have been a truly **** company to work for as proved by their behaviour when they took over North Western Trains and Arriva Transpennine. I say they should have stuck to running buses, but thats unfair on bus drivers and passengers too.

And FCC are no better.

Whilst FCC management have been able to look foreward to 4 figure bonuses on top of their vastly inflated salaries, the staff who do the real work have been 'rewarded' (if that's the right word) with Tesco Giftcards worth £25 each. Or so it seems. Except that when some staff tried to use their cards at their local Tesco store they discovered that they didn't have any money on them.

 

[ady347]

update, i have had to put everything in writing and email it to the hr dept. They said someone will be in touch shortly, the staff return to work 4th jan.
I will also keep this thread updated with news as i recieve it.

Dear Sam,

As per our conversation today I am writing in response to your email dated 29th December 2010 regarding withdrawal of the vacancy offered to me.
I would like to make you aware that on the 30th November 2010 I was offered a conditional offer of employment.
The conditions stated:- satisfactory completion of a medical, pre-employment checks including references and a criminal record check (if applicable), receipt of evidence of your right to work in the UK.
I believe I have met all the required conditions, and after leaving my current job, giving notice on my rental property, moving my belongings 200 miles to the new destination for this vacancy, moving my sons schooling. I have been left in a difficult situation both personally and financially. Their are also costs incurred by myself including loss of earnings and travelling expenses for my medical which i successfully passed.


I have also been advised to make you aware I will be seeking compensation and I hope this can be done amicably. I understand from legal advice I have taken that I can take you to a employment tribunal for breach of contract if a satisfactory solution cannot be reached.
I am aware if I failed to meet any conditions set out in your "conditional offer of employment" you could withdraw the employment offer, but as these have been met by me fully it is First Group that has broken the contract between us.

I look forward to your urgent attention and response to this matter.

 

[richw]

that letter sounds worded fine to me, i'd be interested in First's response,

 

[GB]

The only thing I would change is to drop the words "I believe".

Hope it all goes alright for you, its damn right disgusting that a person can be treated this way!

 

[185]

15 people I know of, including myself already are taking them to court, my next meeting with them in court is March. Be aware they have very expensive lawyers, although they aren't actually all that good.

Good luck fella, hope it works out well. Worst comes to the worst Northern Rail have jobs up at mo, albeit not great pay.

 

[CheekyBandit]

FilthGroup established long ago they do not care less about peoples lives.

...

I say they should have stuck to running buses, but thats unfair on bus drivers and passengers too.

Yes it is unfair on bus drivers and passengers - worst South Yorkshire, who run must of the bus routes in Sheffield, are hugely unpopular. One route from my part of the city to town had an evening service every 15 minutes. Now it is one vehicle at that time providing a service every 40 minutes and buses very often turn up late if at all.

 

[ady347]

15 people I know of, including myself already are taking them to court, my next meeting with them in court is March. Be aware they have very expensive lawyers, although they aren't actually all that good.

Good luck fella, hope it works out well. Worst comes to the worst Northern Rail have jobs up at mo, albeit not great pay.

perhaps you cant talk in detail, but can you give me an idea of what other people are taking them to court for?

 

[185]

Unfair dismissal tribunals on misconducts, unfair deselection from internal recruitment, unfair dismissal on medical issues... loads of others too.

One employee was off on suspension accused of theft from a booking office, and suffered a stroke, likely due to the stress of the investigation. He is about 30 with a young family. The company later realised a manager had caused the theft by using contractors.

Another person was wrongly accused of deliberately opening the doors of a train on the offside. The company completely denied that this was due to yet another electrical fault. Later he was reinstated, but they never apologised and it is still on his 'record'.

 

[ady347]

omg!! seems like i had a lucky escape

 

[Z12XE]

You have to pass a medical to be a carriage cleaner? Am I missing something?

Possibly the same as NXEA who require all staff to have a medical even if what you are going to be doing is not safety critical.

 

[scotsman]

Possibly the same as NXEA who require all staff to have a medical even if what you are going to be doing is not safety critical.

Same with ScotRail - booking office staff have to do them

 

[Matt Taylor]

That is quite common among railway operators, South West Trains and Southern also do this.

 

[Greenback]

The only thing I would change is to drop the words "I believe".

Hope it all goes alright for you, its damn right disgusting that a person can be treated this way!

I agree, I too would remove the word believe.

Same with ScotRail - booking office staff have to do them

I had a medical when I started with FGW in 1998. It was just after First's takeover, so the true company ethos had not yet filtered its way through, fortunately, although the Lockhead effects were soon felt with the recruitment of people such as Mike Mitchell, Andy Cooper and Elaine Holt, all known for the ruthlessness.

Anyway, good luck with the claim, I hope you succeed, pelase let us know what happens!

 

[ady347]

cheers, at the minute i havent heard a thing, they said they would be in touch "in the new year", the staff returned to work on tuesday 4th jan.

i was thinking how long i should give them if they dont get in touch? the next step is i have to get a name and address of where to issue proceedings.

 

[Max]

Yes it is unfair on bus drivers and passengers - worst South Yorkshire, who run must of the bus routes in Sheffield, are hugely unpopular. One route from my part of the city to town had an evening service every 15 minutes. Now it is one vehicle at that time providing a service every 40 minutes and buses very often turn up late if at all.

Wouldn't be the 40 would it? If so, I too have noticed a vast drop in punctuality recently. And the most recent timetable is horrendous.

 

[Dolive22]

If you have to issure proceedings you do it by serving the court documents on the registered address of the company which you get from Companies House. Just google the name and click on (I think) web check once you reach their website. deally you would send a second letter saying 'If this is not resolved in X days I will issue proceedings in the [County Court]/[Employment Tribunal].' Ideally X would be 28, but I don't know if you have some way of getting by in the interim. It will take some time to get either a settlement or judgement.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I suggest you get legal advice at this point from a lawyer. Some of the advice onbrhis topic I do not feel is correct. Seek legal advice.