new uses for Swiss panorama coaches

[Alfonso]

From December Zurich to Munich services are in the hands of ETR610s. Does anyone know what SBB will be doing with the 1st class panorama coaches that will be freed up?

 

[eastwestdivide]

Don't know, but they're also used on the Gotthard Panorama Express, and on some of EC6/7/8/9 to/from Hamburg, and at least one of the ECs into Austria (Transalpin).

There are only 12 in total according to this site:

Apm 19-90 100 - 111 | TrainsDepot.org

Detailed history of Apm 19-90 100 - 111 used by SBB CFF FFS - Schweizerische Bundesbahnen / Chemins de fer fédéraux suisses / Ferrovie federali svizzere. UIC registration: <strong>61 85 19-90</strong>.

www.trainsdepot.org

How many are made free by the new stock for the München trains? Possibly only 2-3

 

[duesselmartin]

Possibly be used in internal lines.

 

[30907]

Only two are being made surplus - they can't be used with a driving trailer so the obvious candidates EC6/7 are out (see similar discussion on Drehscheibe https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?106,9484270,9486070#msg-9486070), nor can most internal SBB services (they already have a couple of diagrams on Zurich-Chur apparently).
I predict SBB will find a use for them!

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Only two are being made surplus - they can't be used with a driving trailer so the obvious candidates EC6/7 are out (see similar discussion on Drehscheibe https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/foren/read.php?106,9484270,9486070#msg-9486070), nor can most internal SBB services (they already have a couple of diagrams on Zurich-Chur apparently).
I predict SBB will find a use for them!

I do hope so.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Thanks to 30907 for that Drehscheibe thread - a poster on there has the plan as:

4x Gotthard
2x Hamburg
2x Graz
2x Chur

so 10/12 diagrammed.

And someone there also explains why they can't be used on pushed services with a driving trailer - because the forces involved could cause cracks in the big curved windows:

Das Problem sind die Kräfte, die beim geschobenen Betrieb wirken, im Zusammenhang mit den grossen, gewölbten Fensterflächen und den dünnen Fensterstegen. Dies könnte zu Rissen in den Fenstern führen

 

[30907]

Thanks to 30907 for that Drehscheibe thread - a poster on there has the plan as:

4x Gotthard
2x Hamburg
2x Graz
2x Chur

so 10/12 diagrammed.

And someone there also explains why they can't be used on pushed services with a driving trailer - because the forces involved could cause cracks in the big curved windows:

Thanks. I misread the thread and thought the two Chur cars were already running. The Chur trains are among the relatively small number of hauled workings that are suitable.
The other issue mentioned is that the windows also make them unsuitable for high-speed lines (?tunnels) as they are not pressure-sealed. I think that will mean they disappear from the Hamburg and Graz runs in a few years.

 

[Austriantrain]

The other issue mentioned is that the windows also make them unsuitable for high-speed lines (?tunnels) as they are not pressure-sealed. I think that will mean they disappear from the Hamburg and Graz runs in a few years.

No Infrastructure improvements on the Zürich - Graz run in sight, so no real reason for them to disappear because of this, and they already use the Inntal-tunnel.

AFAIK this train is even supposed to survive the complete recast of timetables once the Koralmbahn opens, but this might be subject to change.

(And I am not an expert on this, but what infrastructure changes are to be expected on the Zürich - Hamburg that might lead to these coaches not being able to run anymore? I can’t think of any).

 

[Jamesrob637]

Hope they won't be scrapped appreciating that they're already nearly 30 years old (they were so far ahead of their time when built)

 

[30907]

No Infrastructure improvements on the Zürich - Graz run in sight, so no real reason for them to disappear because of this, and they already use the Inntal-tunnel.

AFAIK this train is even supposed to survive the complete recast of timetables once the Koralmbahn opens, but this might be subject to change.

(And I am not an expert on this, but what infrastructure changes are to be expected on the Zürich - Hamburg that might lead to these coaches not being able to run anymore? I can’t think of any).

What maximum speed is the stock passed for? Basel-Mannheim and Koralmbahn will be 250km/h, and I presumed the lack of pressurisation would become an issue. But I think you are better placed to know.

 

[43096]

What maximum speed is the stock passed for? Basel-Mannheim and Koralmbahn will be 250km/h, and I presumed the lack of pressurisation would become an issue. But I think you are better placed to know.

They are passed for 200km/h.

 

[Austriantrain]

What maximum speed is the stock passed for? Basel-Mannheim and Koralmbahn will be 250km/h, and I presumed the lack of pressurisation would become an issue. But I think you are better placed to know.

I can’t really say anything about Germany, but the Zürich - Graz train would not use the Koralmbahn (which while built for 250, in service will probably have max 230 kph - the Inntal tunnel, where the Panorama Coaches already run, has a max speed of 220 - the Zürich - Graz train itself 200 kph - so no real difference).

 

[30907]

The Zürich - Graz train would not use the Koralmbahn (which while built for 250, in service will probably have max 230 kph - the Inntal tunnel, where the Panorama Coaches already run, has a max speed of 220 - the Zürich - Graz train itself 200 kph - so no real difference).

Thanks for the speeds info.
I doubt DB would want 200kph stock on a 249kph route in a Taktfahrplan.
I assumed that EC164/165 would switch to Tauern-Villach-Koralm as it would be faster (see the Koralmbahn thread) and ISTR that the service was planned to switch to RJ in a couple of years anyway - but again I may well be wrong.

 

[Austriantrain]

Thanks for the speeds info.
I doubt DB would want 200kph stock on a 249kph route in a Taktfahrplan.
I assumed that EC164/165 would switch to Tauern-Villach-Koralm as it would be faster (see the Koralmbahn thread) and ISTR that the service was planned to switch to RJ in a couple of years anyway - but again I may well be wrong.

There are no plans to switch this service to RJ - not enough sets and the use of SBB coaches is essential to balance RJ workings from Vienna to Zürich (Austrian-Swiss cross-border traffic is, thankfully, still run in the old-fashioned cooperative way).

If the service survives the Koralmbahn at all (and the PSO obligations seem to require it), it will most probably be on the current route, and that is also the current plan. As all such long distance services, intermediate destinations are very important, in the case of this train more than all, since demand between Zürich and Graz is not really huge. Instead, the train serves quite an important purpose in bringing Swiss tourists to Austrian holiday destinations. - the Swiss like traveling by train, and Austria is a much cheaper destination than Switzerland itself,). Of course, these plans are still subject to change.

@Germany: I just had a look at the Deutschlandtakt plans again, and Karlsruhe - Basel Bad Bhf has a planned journey time of 1h22 (vs 1h34 now). We will have to see how much of the time saving will be achieved by new line segments and how much will really rely on running at 250 kph (with stops about every 20-25 minutes, probably not much: more will probably depend on the use of rapidly accelerating train sets... same result though, since it excludes LHCS).

In any case, the Rheintal will not be ready for quite some years. The panorama coaches will probably be withdrawn by then anyway...