New unit Vs Refurb costs

[ComUtoR]

Just reading the thread about 60m refurb for 321's

Typically how much does a new fleet cost compared to refurbs. Our fleet has had a couple of refurbs/refreshes. At what point is a new fleet financially better or is it more to do with the practicalities of old units vs new.

Cheers in advance.

 

[grumblingalong]

I think, and this is just I think, I heard the 321 renatus refurb will cost about 1/3 of the cost of a new fleet. I think.

 

[Dave1987]

From what I gather the rough going rate for new trains is about £2.5m per coach. So a 4 car train would cost about £10m ish.

 

[Yew]

Of course. This also depends on the scope of the refurbishment. Replacing seat covers is cheaper than a complete interior redesign

 

[ainsworth74]

From what I gather the rough going rate for new trains is about £2.5m per coach. So a 4 car train would cost about £10m ish.

Thought it was about £1.5m?

 

[The Ham]

From what I gather the rough going rate for new trains is about £2.5m per coach. So a 4 car train would cost about £10m ish.

Thought it was about £1.5m?

It depends, a basic commuter EMU (no loos) is going to cost a lot less than a long distance train with lots of facilities.

Of course the purchase price is only one element as the new Desiro Cities are reported to have maintenance costs of somewhere around 1/3 less than the original Desiros as they have been designed so that maintenance is as simple as possible.

Also age of the existing trains come into play as the shorter their remaining lifespan the higher the yearly cost. As does the number of units in one of two ways; either lots of units will tend to be cheaper to do than only a few. Alternatively if there are only a few units of several different classes of units then it could be better to get a more uniform fleet by getting new units and save costs that way.

 

[AM9]

It depends, a basic commuter EMU (no loos) is going to cost a lot less than a long distance train with lots of facilities.

Of course the purchase price is only one element as the new Desiro Cities are reported to have maintenance costs of somewhere around 1/3 less than the original Desiros as they have been designed so that maintenance is as simple as possible.

Also age of the existing trains come into play as the shorter their remaining lifespan the higher the yearly cost. As does the number of units in one of two ways; either lots of units will tend to be cheaper to do than only a few. Alternatively if there are only a few units of several different classes of units then it could be better to get a more uniform fleet by getting new units and save costs that way.

Also the distribution of candidates for refurbishment affects any diverse requirements, hence the RoSCos enthusiasm to get each class in as few TOCs' fleets as possible.

 

[hwl]

Thought it was about £1.5m?

Indeed £1.4 to £1.5m for recent Bombardier orders

 

[superkev]

With Thyristors and GTO's in traction packages being old technology and spares becoming a problem 're-tractioning may have to be factored in.
Diddnt I read somewhere there are only a few thyristors for class 91s left on the planet.
K

 

[ComUtoR]

Hmm.

1/3 is still pretty high. We have had a new traction package too as well as more than one refresh and refurb. We are now getting another refurb. New units mean new tech. TMS, TPWS Mk4, Mitrac, SDO etc. There is also a benefit to the passenger too. Aircon, increased seating capacity, WiFi as well as being compliant with all current regulations. Retro fitting must also form some of the fleet running costs ?

 

[Wivenswold]

You could always do both! Huge refurb then replace them with brand new trains 5 years later. Look no further than the 307s and 309s refurbished in the mid-eighties only to be replaced by 321s. Or the D-stock on the District Line in London.

 

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

1/3 is still pretty high

Surely the other benefit of a refurb is time taken? Even a thorough refurb would presumably take much less time than building, testing, driver training on a new unit (assuming that you can't replace the old unit with an identical new build - and why would you replace like for like if the old unit is old enough to be in the bracket for replacement?).

 

[al.currie93]

From what I gather the rough going rate for new trains is about £2.5m per coach. So a 4 car train would cost about £10m ish.

Thought it was about £1.5m?

Indeed £1.4 to £1.5m for recent Bombardier orders

£1.4 million to £1.5 million seems very low to me, what Bombardier order was this? To give some other prices (all adjusted to 2015 values):

- Class 800 at £2.8 million per carriage

- Class 801 at £2.4 million per carriage

- Class 185 at £2.25 million per carriage

- Class 350 at £2 million per carriage

- Class 68 at £2.52 million per locomotive (for reference)

Locomotive hauled coaches are generally less than this - the IME gave a figure of £1 million per coach in a recent article - unless they are of a very high specification or very bespoke like the Caledonian Sleeper coaches.

Surely the other benefit of a refurb is time taken? Even a thorough refurb would presumably take much less time than building, testing, driver training on a new unit (assuming that you can't replace the old unit with an identical new build - and why would you replace like for like if the old unit is old enough to be in the bracket for replacement?).

This is a good point - the other costs for generally introducing a new train are usually overlooked.

 

[hwl]

£1.4 million to £1.5 million seems very low to me, what Bombardier order was this? To give some other prices (all adjusted to 2015 values):

- Class 800 at £2.8 million per carriage

- Class 801 at £2.4 million per carriage

- Class 185 at £2.25 million per carriage

- Class 350 at £2 million per carriage

- Class 68 at £2.52 million per locomotive (for reference)

Locomotive hauled coaches are generally less than this - the IME gave a figure of £1 million per coach in a recent article - unless they are of a very high specification or very bespoke like the Caledonian Sleeper coaches.



This is a good point - the other costs for generally introducing a new train are usually overlooked.

You are comparing Apples and Oranges as some rolling stock like 800s 350s 185s on your list above had servicing and maintenance included for a very long period (upto 27 years in some cases!).

How about a current one 387/2 (first 10 units being tested now).

27x 4 car units for £145.2m so £1.344m per car

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...w/gatwick-express-class-3872-emu-on-test.html

387/1

29x 4 car units for £180m so £1.551m per car

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...-to-supply-trains-for-thameslink-cascade.html

377/6

26x 5 car units for £188.1m so £1.452m per car

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2011/12/28-boost-for-derby-as-bombardier.html


Edit to Add:
Class 700 £1.4035 per car (1.6bn/1140 cars)

Class 707 £1.40m per car (£210m / 150 cars)

Class 710 £1.44m per car (£260m /180 cars)

Edit to Add (2nd time)
Angel (the owning ROSCO) put the capital cost of the 350 /3 and /4 order as £133m for 80 cars so £1.663 m per car
https://www.angeltrains.co.uk/Products-Services#million4

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Surely the other benefit of a refurb is time taken? Even a thorough refurb would presumably take much less time than building, testing, driver training on a new unit (assuming that you can't replace the old unit with an identical new build - and why would you replace like for like if the old unit is old enough to be in the bracket for replacement?).

Siemens and Bombardier can build and deliver new units at twice the rate Wabtec etc can refurb stuff. 2 Class 700 cars come off the production line a day at peak rate and that is not total factory capacity...

If a franchise needs to add capacity as well then new looks very attractive at the moment.