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New Tramways

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BerkshireRails

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Of course there's Volks on the other side of the pier! Might not like the competition!
The Volks is owned by the council.
I reckon Brighton might be better off with a Coventry VLR type tramway, given all the narrowing down. I'd certainly be dead against shutting off Queens Road or North Street due to just nowhere else to go. A huge one way system would probably be the only way to prevent total gridlock.
However use more normal size trams like the West Midlands Metro CAF Trams or a Croydon Tram. 20241019_154019.jpg
One idea floated for Bristol is a city centre loop on street, connected to Temple Meads. It would need very effective priority measures and as much segregation as possible to ensure city centre traffic disruption doesn't propagate to the broader rail network, which I think is the danger of networks with street trackage being connected to the railway.

Rather than a loop, I suggest a double track spur configuration with a clear terminus for layovers that can absorb incoming delay. I'd opt for near total traffic segregation, even eschewing bus lanes for the most part, especially busy central multiroute corridors, but allowing well-prioritised crossings of minor low traffic access roads where expedient. That may need some tunnelling or elevated construction. Such a link could potentially make use of the tighter curves and steeper gradients of light rail standards and the lighter maximum loads of a passenger-only railway. A delta junction connecting to both ends of Temple Meads could allow many local services to penetrate the city centre while also serving the main rail hub. A high platform Stadtbahn using tram-trains. If there were other trams in the city, I'd keep them segregated from this city centre suburban stub.
So conversion of the Metro Bus Guided Busway network in Bristol would be a good start?
In some cases it might be worth considering a short isolated tram route into a city centre specifically to allow local tram-trains from a local suburban network to reach major traffic objectives.
That is a great way of putting it, like the South Wales Metro, with the Cardiff Crossrail and the class 398s.
 
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AlastairFraser

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Brighton; I'm actually surprised the Grand Parade A23/Marlborough place (etc) isn't one-way from Preston Circus down to the Steine, although the western side appears to be buses and taxis only?

As for Milton Keynes, that Coventry-style VLR could do the job, even going through the centre (I reckon a mini-gauge rail inside would help move people around, not sure how long the building is but it feels like a mile!) linked to the station. If it's a case of mixing shoppers/excited kids etc with a moving railway, how's about an overhead hanging one?! But a 3'6" embedded rail, eastbound on one corridor, westbound the other would be a real help for us of a certain age! That aside, with it's wide boulevards MK would be ideal for a tram network (MK Dons - Hospital - Station - Centre - I believe there's a Coach Parkway by a M1 junction?)
The tram or VLR route from Stadium MK to MK Coachway you propose sounds like a great idea, although it should be extended a bit further south to Bletchley station for reasons of connectivity.
A good idea for a second route would be Stony Stratford - Wolverton station - Stantonbury - Newport Pagnell - new MK eastern extension suburbs - MK Coachway would also work well to connect the northern suburbs into rail services and the rest of the city.
 

edwin_m

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I reckon Brighton might be better off with a Coventry VLR type tramway, given all the narrowing down. I'd certainly be dead against shutting off Queens Road or North Street due to just nowhere else to go. A huge one way system would probably be the only way to prevent total gridlock.
However use more normal size trams like the West Midlands Metro CAF Trams or a Croydon Tram.
The VLR is standard gauge and 2637mm wide (per https://www.coventry.gov.uk/coventry-light-rail/technical-specifications - other quote not relevant) so almost the same as the 2.65m width of trams in Croydon and most other UK operations. So it's not really optimised for narrow lanes. Some re-design of the body might be possible but would reduce on-board space and also battery capacity, and going to a narrower track gauge would be a more radical change. Nottingham and many of the French tramways use a narrower vehicle, but it's a big reduction in capacity for little or no cost saving.
 

Howardh

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The VLR is standard gauge and 2637mm wide (per https://www.coventry.gov.uk/coventry-light-rail/technical-specifications - other quote not relevant) so almost the same as the 2.65m width of trams in Croydon and most other UK operations. So it's not really optimised for narrow lanes. Some re-design of the body might be possible but would reduce on-board space and also battery capacity, and going to a narrower track gauge would be a more radical change. Nottingham and many of the French tramways use a narrower vehicle, but it's a big reduction in capacity for little or no cost saving.
Probably slightly off-topic a bit, but seeing as you mentioned the French tramways - are the Amsterdam trams (the new-ish ones) wider than the older ones that were around in the late 90's? I believe the tracks are the same gauge, if so then places like Manchester who have reasonably wide trams with 2 x 2 seating, narrower ones on the same tracks (2x1) could find it easier to get around the narrow streets should new lines appear around the city centre and so on?
 

Dr Day

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what is the minimum city size, (population and built up area) that is needed to make a tram solution an attractive option
It is probably more density of population and jobs along a specific corridor than absolute size. Often the problem making a business case stack up in UK smaller cities, compared to say those in France, is our low density suburban housing hence insufficient demand rather than purely high capital costs. Although those don’t help either.
 

BerkshireRails

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Probably slightly off-topic a bit, but seeing as you mentioned the French tramways - are the Amsterdam trams (the new-ish ones) wider than the older ones that were around in the late 90's? I believe the tracks are the same gauge, if so then places like Manchester who have reasonably wide trams with 2 x 2 seating, narrower ones on the same tracks (2x1) could find it easier to get around the narrow streets should new lines appear around the city centre and so on?
You would probably require some form of gap filler to do that and retain accessibility. Also as trams as guided they require a narrower right of way to enable the same width of vehicles as buses. Assuming a bus requires a 3m wide road for a 2.55m wide bus based on the Alexandra Dennis Enviro400 bus.
 

edwin_m

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Probably slightly off-topic a bit, but seeing as you mentioned the French tramways - are the Amsterdam trams (the new-ish ones) wider than the older ones that were around in the late 90's? I believe the tracks are the same gauge, if so then places like Manchester who have reasonably wide trams with 2 x 2 seating, narrower ones on the same tracks (2x1) could find it easier to get around the narrow streets should new lines appear around the city centre and so on?
The Amsterdam Combino trams dating from the early 2000s, and the newer Urbos, are both 2.4m wide according to Dutch Wikipedia (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdamse_Combino's, https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdamse_gelede_trams_15G - nothing else relevant to quote here). These are/were both "standard platform" designs from different suppliers, that could/can be delivered in a range of different widths.

It's also worth noting that where Continental tramways run uni-directional trams with a cab at one end and doors on one side, they can also be asymmetrical in plan view. The ends are tapered more on the left hand side in the direction of travel. This allows the tracks to be closer together than otherwise on tight curves where the end corners stick out, and having less taper on the right may allow an entrance door alongside the driver to be closer to the kerb.
 
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Howardh

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The Amsterdam Combino trams dating from the early 2000s, and the newer Urbos, are both 2.4m wide according to Dutch Wikipedia (https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdamse_Combino's, https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amsterdamse_gelede_trams_15G - nothing else relevant to quote here). These are/were both "standard platform" designs from different suppliers, that could/can be delivered in a range of different widths.

It's also worth noting that where Continental tramways run uni-directional trams with a cab at one end and doors on one side, they can also be asymmetrical in plan view. The ends are tapered more on the left hand side in the direction of travel. This allows the tracks to be closer together than otherwise on tight curves where the end corners stick out, and having less taper on the right may allow an entrance door alongside the driver to be closer to the kerb.
Thanks, must have been my imagination/bad memory they look quite thin on that page!
 

DJ_K666

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Brighton; I'm actually surprised the Grand Parade A23/Marlborough place (etc) isn't one-way from Preston Circus down to the Steine, although the western side appears to be buses and taxis only?

As for Milton Keynes, that Coventry-style VLR could do the job, even going through the centre (I reckon a mini-gauge rail inside would help move people around, not sure how long the building is but it feels like a mile!) linked to the station. If it's a case of mixing shoppers/excited kids etc with a moving railway, how's about an overhead hanging one?! But a 3'6" embedded rail, eastbound on one corridor, westbound the other would be a real help for us of a certain age! That aside, with it's wide boulevards MK would be ideal for a tram network (MK Dons - Hospital - Station - Centre - I believe there's a Coach Parkway by a M1 junction?)
It used to be like that until around 2019. They changed a lot of it under the 'Valley Gardens' scheme. It used to be basically a clockwise one way system from Preston Circus to the sea front with northbound traffic going up Marlborough Place and Southbound traffic coming along Viaduct Road then down past the Level and onto Grand Parade. It generally worked but I moved away as the new scheme was being put in. Bus lanes had their own 2 way route past the church and then the two split apart to join the relevant traffic directions.

I've tried walking through the MK shopping centre. It's pretty vast. I probably wouldn't put a railway in, simply due to the volume of people, unless you put it in a lesser used corridor in between retail units, but maybe a few travellators might work. No idea about the coach parkway tbh. I don't really hang around MK unless GETS is on or a heavy metal show or something.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The Volks is owned by the council.

However use more normal size trams like the West Midlands Metro CAF Trams or a Croydon Tram. View attachment 186602

So conversion of the Metro Bus Guided Busway network in Bristol would be a good start?

That is a great way of putting it, like the South Wales Metro, with the Cardiff Crossrail and the class 398s.
The Volks is only 2' 8¼" gauge (?) And it's owned by the council.

Definitely a '2 car' tram like Croydon. Any longer would just be too long (3 car like Sheffield, I'm not sure I can really call a Flexity 2 a 5 car though). One advantage of the Coventry plan is that they can go around 45' radius curves. If there's a conventional tram that can fo that, then that might be the answer.
 
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BerkshireRails

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The Volks is only 2' 8¼" gauge (?) And it's owned by the council.

Definitely a '2 car' tram like Croydon. Any longer would just be too long (3 car like Sheffield, I'm not sure I can really call a Flexity 2 a 5 car though). One advantage of the Coventry plan is that they can go around 45' radius curves. If there's a conventional tram that can fo that, then that might be the answer.
It became part of the council in the 1930s, when the Brighton Corporation purchased it. The Brighton Corporation was the transport part of Brighton Council.

Although 850mm is narrow it is still possible to build a tramway to that gauge. It might be worth while to regauge the line to 900-1000mm a more standard tram gauge which could still allow the Volks Electric Railway stock to operate on the wider gauge with modifications like pantograph to pick up off OLE instead of the third rail.
 

I'm here now

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Plymouth - maybe Plymstock via centre and station to Milehouse but some provision of some kind. Definitely a lot of dual carriageways around asking for it.
 

zwk500

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It became part of the council in the 1930s, when the Brighton Corporation purchased it. The Brighton Corporation was the transport part of Brighton Council.

Although 850mm is narrow it is still possible to build a tramway to that gauge. It might be worth while to regauge the line to 900-1000mm a more standard tram gauge which could still allow the Volks Electric Railway stock to operate on the wider gauge with modifications like pantograph to pick up off OLE instead of the third rail.
Either you leave the Volks alone as a tourist attraction, or you completely get rid of it in converting it to a proper tramway.
 

zwk500

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If required I would convert it into a tramway.
Would you, why? it serves absolutely minimal potential travel demand in the city, and there's plenty of room for a conventional tramway either on the adjacent roads (on top or below) or on the edge of the beach next to the VER and the road.
 

aron2smith

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Few new tram routes are likely to be constructed in the UK in the next 25 years, particularly if they aren't extensions of existing systems, as they are so expensive to build.
Of course they'll remain expensive to build if we refuse to build anything. If we got on with it, say these 10 cities and large towns need trams from scratch + all existing systems need extensions and then standardise the planning process, construction and material. Gave engineering and construction firms as well as builders, the certainty of a rolling programme of works for the next 25 years, I wouldn't be surprised if all 10 ended up costing what just 1 or 2 tram systems cost us now thanks to a joined up approach.

In France, once planning was approved, several of the towns building their trams collaborated and worked together, shared resources etc. That significantly cut costs. A number of the areas there where trams were built in the 2010s worked together just like this.

If it were up to me, anything around 300,000 or more would have at least a 1 line tram system. Even in places slightly smaller than this like Plymouth, the busiest corridors for buses (out to Saltash or up to Derriford via Mutley, Probably to Plympton and Plymstock too) would benefit from having trams.
 

daodao

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@aron2smith

Are you unaware of the dire financial situation that the UK now faces?

New light rail lines are only worth considering where they predominantly use reserved track alignments rather running in the street interfering with and being delayed by other traffic. The most successful ones typically use former heavy rail alignments, which smaller towns like Brighton and Reading don't have.

I do support conversion of some existing poorly used heavy rail lines to light rail, as this could reduce running costs and increase patronage.
 

The exile

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@aron2smith

Are you unaware of the dire financial situation that the UK now faces?

New light rail lines are only worth considering where they predominantly use reserved track alignments rather running in the street interfering with and being delayed by other traffic. The most successful ones typically use former heavy rail alignments, which smaller towns like Brighton and Reading don't have.

I do support conversion of some existing poorly used heavy rail lines to light rail, as this could reduce running costs and increase patronage.
Even if that is the case (and things certainly aren’t rosy) we should be working on preserving / creating alignments for future use when economics permit.
 

mr_jrt

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RE: Brighton, my musings were to quad the mainline up to south of Patcham tunnel (with a park and ride in place there), and run a tram on the eastern pair, then come through the front of Brighton station over the cab road, down Queens St to the seafront, then along the front in both directions as far as is practicable.

One thing I never quite understood about the Valley Gardens changes was why they kept the lower end of London Road open for general traffic, given the route via Cheapside & New England Road exists. I would have continued the segregated bus lane up London Road at least as far as Bond St., and sent all the buses up it. Makes no sense whatsoever why some skip the London Road shops. Relevant here, as that segregated lane would be ideal as the core of another future tram route.
 

aron2smith

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Are you unaware of the dire financial situation that the UK now faces?

New light rail lines are only worth considering where they predominantly use reserved track alignments rather running in the street interfering with and being delayed by other traffic. The most successful ones typically use former heavy rail alignments, which smaller towns like Brighton and Reading don't have.

I do support conversion of some existing poorly used heavy rail lines to light rail, as this could reduce running costs and increase patronage.
We don't get out of the hole but standing still though. We had 14 years of Tories using the poor economy as an excuse to not invest and guess what? The economy is still rubbish, we wasted all that time and even historically worse off Eastern European countries are better off now. Also funny how the economy never crashed over the high cost of HS2 or literally any new infrastructure but it did with the Truss tax cuts for the rich which actually produces bugger all. Even with things as they are now, the economy can handle borrowing for things that will bear fruit in the future, especially transport which only ever increases productivity. If anything, lack of investment is starting to prove more expensive now.
 

I'm here now

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We don't get out of the hole but standing still though. We had 14 years of Tories using the poor economy as an excuse to not invest and guess what? The economy is still rubbish, we wasted all that time and even historically worse off Eastern European countries are better off now. Also funny how the economy never crashed over the high cost of HS2 or literally any new infrastructure but it did with the Truss tax cuts for the rich which actually produces bugger all. Even with things as they are now, the economy can handle borrowing for things that will bear fruit in the future, especially transport which only ever increases productivity. If anything, lack of investment is starting to prove more expensive now.
Indeed.
 

DJ_K666

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One thing I never quite understood about the Valley Gardens changes was why they kept the lower end of London Road open for general traffic, given the route via Cheapside & New England Road exists. I would have continued the segregated bus lane up London Road at least as far as Bond St., and sent all the buses up it. Makes no sense whatsoever why some skip the London Road shops. Relevant here, as that segregated lane would be ideal as the core of another future tram route.
I think the 25, 28 and 29 were meant for getting people out of the city centre as quick as possible, so they use the eastern side after leaving the Steine. The 24, 48 and 49 all serve London Rd shops and Lewes Rd so unless someone's heading beyond the Universities they don't really need to change along the Lewes Road, at thr Gyratory or the bus depot, for example. The 50 goes to the Uni as well (via Hollingdean) so it covers all bases while preventing London Road from becoming gridlocked.
 

Magdalia

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the economy can handle borrowing for things that will bear fruit in the future
Only a very limited amount. The UK economy has huge debts and is paying high levels of interest on them. Bearing fruit in the future doesn't pay interest now.
 

Tomos y Tanc

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Only a very limited amount. The UK economy has huge debts and is paying high levels of interest on them. Bearing fruit in the future doesn't pay interest now.
Without taking the thread too far off track, trams are essentially local projects and sould be financed by local, rather than central, governement borrowing. That's how most continental european tram systems are financed and how they used to be, and should be, financed here as well.

The reason a Leeds tram system hasn't been built already is because the local decision makers are at the mercy of treasury whims and aren't allowed, by law, to seek loans other than from central government.
 

Magdalia

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Without taking the thread too far off track, trams are essentially local projects and sould be financed by local, rather than central, governement borrowing. That's how most continental european tram systems are financed and how they used to be, and should be, financed here as well.
Local authorities in the UK have limited powers to borrow, commensurate with their limited powers to raise revenue. Without revenue raising powers local authorities can't pay the interest on the debt.
 

MikeFromLFE

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The area around Stoke-on-Trent, at least between Stoke, Newcastle and Hanley? Leicester as somewhere with a high population density but not being large enough to justify a metro.
Leicester could work - particularly if the new conurbations on the outskirts were planned with trams in mind. The routes into the city centre are increasingly congested and I struggle to see how you'd accommodate trams on routes such as Belgrave Road or even Hinckley Road.
 
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