New Trains

[tbtc]

Because their cheap and the run, no matter how poor quality. For a ROSCO to replace them it must consider the cost of purchasing the new trains and also the loss of nolonger being able to lease the pacers when they still have x years left in them.

This is why the 2019 deadline is so good, if they can no longer lease them after that then they have no financial incentive not to replace them.

I agree.

If we know that we have eight and a half years left of them then at least we know we *have* to get rid of them.

Rather than start a new thread, I wonder whether anyone has an idea of a timetable for Pacer replacement.

Lets say we need a minimum of one hundred new DMUs to replace the Pacers (given the fact that electrification will mean a "like for like" replacement may not be required)...

...and Pacers cannot run after 31 January 2011...

...so the new DMUs all need to be introduced by summer 2019 to allow for teething problems etc...

...so maybe we introduce one new unit a week? That'd mean they'd need to start in service from summer 2017...

...so if the first one is going to be in service from summer 2019 then maybe it needs to be available for testing from January ...

So, if you need the first train by the start of 2017 then when would the order have to be made? How long do we have before we need to order them? Working backwards I'm not sure there's a lot of time before we need to bite the bullet...

 

[WatcherZero]

TBTC, they would have to be ordered around 2014/15 with first introductions around 2017 but probably bulk arriving 2018/19. I would say 100 carriages a year a target production rate. I wouldnt be surprised if the intial tender was sent out late 2012-mid 2013.

Network Rail have to approve the trains electronic emmissions as not conflicting with other systems, its profile and its safety I believe.

Your right on the leasing companies, was going to say it myself earlier but thought not to. Recently all three were owned by banks, theyve been gradually sold off during the banking crisis. However the banks are still quite prevalent.

Angel Trains: Originally Japanese bank Nomura, then RBS recently sold to consortium of infrastructure funds
Eversholt: Owned by private equity including 3i
Diesel Trains: Setup the government in 2009 as a shell company to buy the 200 new diesel carriages needed and then be privatised, currently as you know that order hasnt happened. State owned but with no trains as yet.

QW Rail Leasing: National Australia Bank and SMBC (another Japanese bank) setup in 2008 and owns the London Overground stock
Porterbrook: Originally employee buyout on privatisation, sold to Stagecoach, then Abbey National and now a consortium of Deutsch Bank, Lloyds TSB and BNP Paribas.
Lloyds TSB General Leasing: Founded in 2009 by Lloyds TSB

(Where I havent mentioned a date theyve existed since privatisation, though gone through name changes)

 

[Eng274]

at the real risk of getting my head chewed off I think the banks all sold off their controlling stakes in the ROSCOS and not sure that it's Network Rail who say whether a train can run on our network - is that not down to the regulator?

The ROSCOs are still as far as I know, owned by banking consortiums - it would be a conflict of interest and defeating the purpose of privatisation if Network Rail controlled the ROSCOs.

The government through DfT does have a large stake in the decision making regarding stock allocation, and any proposed plans for rolling stock (new build or existing) have to be ratified by DfT.

Its easy to conject the scenario you describe, for the amount of meddling that DfT are seen to do. Network Rail can only influence rolling stock decisions if they can justify any infrastructure concerns, e.g. Pacers are banned from some routes due to the rigid axle arrangement prematurely wearing down the rails on sharp curves. Or a train being too wide or too long wheelbase for platform clearances at curved stations along a route.

edit: I was only really aware of the 'big 3' ROSCOs, had no idea there were that many others kicking about!

 

[tbtc]

TBTC, they would have to be ordered around 2014/15 with first introductions around 2017 but probably bulk arriving 2018/19. I would say 100 carriages a year a target production rate. I wouldnt be surprised if the intial tender was sent out late 2012-mid 2013.

Network Rail have to approve the trains electronic emmissions as not conflicting with other systems, its profile and its safety I believe.

Cheers. So, hopefully in the next year the process will start creaking in to action. Fingers crossed anyhow

 

[RichmondCommu]

What is so bad about the 172s? I am a regular Pacer commuter and they are the only train where "normals" groan when they see one! Normally, they couldn't care less...

What really irks me is when people say "pacer or nothing". Well, factually it is true but it certainly typifies a poor attitude in the UK that wouldn't be tolerated elsewhere....

In all honesty Ian only made his comment to seek attention.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And also the new 172's are better than 142's for sure, as anything with a bogie is better than a 142.

I see he saved this "punch Line" until the end of his posting. The situation with regard to the Pacers never being designed for having bogies has afflicted these units all their working life. It is good that a forum member brings up this particular shortcoming of the Pacers every so often, lest those forum members in the areas unaffected by these units forget to realise this matter.