New trains vs further developing existing designs

[Invincible]

Bit more than 5, eg Skoda, NEWAG, PESA, ZOS, Arad, Stadler, CAF, Alstom, Siemens, Hitachi etc

Skoda cars was sold to VW, but in 2017 both CRRC and Siemens bid for the train division, but seems the division stayed in what's left of the Skoda group.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bit more than 5, eg Skoda, NEWAG, PESA, ZOS, Arad, Stadler, CAF, Alstom, Siemens, Hitachi etc

And none of them want to build a bespoke GB train with its peculiar "standards" (except at a bespoke price).

 

[vuzzeho]

And none of them want to build a bespoke GB train with its peculiar "standards" (except at a bespoke price).

If they already can't build 'off the shelf' for us, then it wouldn't be the end of the world to set a standard of coupler and software for said coupler. Might even fix some of the coupling issues new trains seem to face when being introduced.

 

[JohnofWessex]

It seems to me that the idea of a single train plant churning out a set a week of a bog standard go anywhere do most jobs MU/Tram/Whatever that just goes off to replace the oldest/most knackered train in the UK so on and so forth - a sort of 21st Century 4 VEP/Class 101

 

[Snow1964]

It seems to me that the idea of a single train plant churning out a set a week of a bog standard go anywhere do most jobs MU/Tram/Whatever that just goes off to replace the oldest/most knackered train in the UK so on and so forth - a sort of 21st Century 4 VEP/Class 101

When you consider the one size fits most (even if it has different seat layouts) should be ideal way forward vs the way DfT is thinking (and presumably any staff moved into Last resort or GBR) would continue too. The two scenarios are worlds apart.

Currently DfT (per procurement spreadsheet) have :

29 express EMUs for Transpennine, which a DfT letter says will be about 205m, with options to increase to 55 units for another region (some of which presumably could use 200m 895s instead if longer HS2 trains ordered, leaving spare 200m units)

EMUs for SouthEastern, 350 vehicles (option upto 640 vehicles)

Northern 8 year framework deal to remove oldest 15x (not necessarily new trains, appears to allow converted or displaced units).

Northern split into 3 sub lots, possibly from multiple manufacturers
1) EMU in service 2029-30 just 12 x 3car
2) MMU in service 2030-31 48 x 3car, 64 x 4car
3) BEMU in service 2032 just 8 x 4car

GWR replacement of all DMUs by BEMUs (150, 158, 165, 166) and maybe 175, 387 plus options to cover others eg Chiltern 165, 168, and SWR 158, 159s

Now trying to re-think :

When you look at this list you wonder why there is so much non standard stuff in it. The first one seems to be Express / InterCity style, but makes little sense as a stand alone order of another new type when they could just order more of existing type and use them interchangeably as part of a combined common fleet

EMUs for SouthEastern, ok, decent volume, but why did't they just specify option to have some units dual voltage and add Northern lot 1 into batch

Northern lot 3 as stand alone lot is crazy, having already decided to possibly combine Chiltern and SWR replacements into big BEMU order GWR scheme, why didn't this tiny Northern order get added in too.

Actually how serious are they about getting BEMUs into Devon and Cornwall, in next 5-9 years as part of GWR order, so why didn't they add say options of say 50 MMU units to Northern lot 2, which would give flexibility for extra units could go to this non-electrified order if required.

As another scenario, perhaps the 196s being relatively new diesel trains could go to South West, so should the BEMU order include enough options for West Midlands and East-West rail etc. (although could argue the vague potential for non GWR routes does exclude this)

So even if there is not one size fits all unit, sort of feels there should have been max 3 orders in framework style where additional units of the type could be drawn down for next 12-15 years.

 

[Transilien]

I know in countries like Slovakia and Poland they have continued to produce Eurofima carriages, a 70s design (essentially the mainland version of the mark 3).

 

[Stephen42]

When you look at this list you wonder why there is so much non standard stuff in it. The first one seems to be Express / InterCity style, but makes little sense as a stand alone order of another new type when they could just order more of existing type and use them interchangeably as part of a combined common fleet

Public procurement rules mean they must run a competitive process if there isn't an existing competitive procurement which they can order from. A private franchise could pick a new fleet based on what they liked as the competitive procurement was for the franchise itself. It's not ideal, but the procurement started well before the nationalisation process.

There is no requirement that the new order is a different type of unit. It will depend what provides the most compelling offer.

EMUs for SouthEastern, ok, decent volume, but why did't they just specify option to have some units dual voltage and add Northern lot 1 into batch

No Southeastern driver is going to drive a Northern train and vice versa, very few will drivers will switch between those organisations too. Southeastern wants units that can go anywhere on their network and make the most of their platform lengths which is likely to result in 20m coaches. Their units also don't need room for diesel engines or large batteries. Northern could prefer 23m coaches and it's possible Southeastern will want longer units than Northern.

Northern lot 3 as stand alone lot is crazy, having already decided to possibly combine Chiltern and SWR replacements into big BEMU order GWR scheme, why didn't this tiny Northern order get added in too.

Actually how serious are they about getting BEMUs into Devon and Cornwall, in next 5-9 years as part of GWR order, so why didn't they add say options of say 50 MMU units to Northern lot 2, which would give flexibility for extra units could go to this non-electrified order if required.

The numbers you quote are the phase 1 for Northern. It's against a larger 8 year framework agreement as you state which has a high limit of 450 units to be called off across all lots. Northern will be hoping to get commonisation across lots, but splitting into lots allows spreading out if there is a clear commercial advantage in doing so. A similar fleet has far more advantages within Northern than across operators with no route overlap.

As an aside the phase 1 numbers for batteries are small, partially due to concerns around power supply. Phase 2 for BEMUs is higher as a result which will be the same units. It makes sense to see if the BEMUs are any good before immediately ordering them for a load of other operators.

There's nothing stopping them calling units off for other operators in future for any lot. The other operators will want to check it aligns with their rolling stock strategy though and not just tack on to existing procurements ending up with a huge fleet mix to deal with.

As another scenario, perhaps the 196s being relatively new diesel trains could go to South West, so should the BEMU order include enough options for West Midlands and East-West rail etc. (although could argue the vague potential for non GWR routes does exclude this)

So even if there is not one size fits all unit, sort of feels there should have been max 3 orders in framework style where additional units of the type could be drawn down for next 12-15 years.

I'd expect that the trend in future will be for fewer but larger orders. The grouping could be based on both requirements and area to get the most out of a common fleet. There's benefits to keeping a competitive market by having enough orders for all manufacturers to compete and remain in the market. One competition every 4 years is unlikely to foster that. I'd expect the small 30-50 unit procurements will mostly disappear in future.