New trains for Northern

[Halish Railway]

Isn't it just two at the moment? One per hour, 40-ish minute journey time?

In the future it might be different, of course. But if I've mis-counted... my bad.

Sorry, I should have pointed out that I was referring to if the service went half-hourly.

 

[HST43257]

I’d look at creating a high frequency all-electric system, with 3 all-stations routes, all operating at 2tph.

Leeds to Huddersfield via Bradford
Huddersfield to Leeds via Dewsbury
Leeds to Brighouse via Bradford
Leeds to Brighouse via Dewsbury

All of the services would form others, and some stations (Low Moor, Bramley, Cottingley, Morley, Batley, Ravensthorpe and Deighton) would get no services other than these. The other locations would keep the Calder valley/TransPennine services, thus giving them a new/faster service to Manchester and Leeds, as well as other destinations less frequently.

At Leeds, it’d need 1 platform for Bradford trains only and 1 platform for Dewsbury trains only.
You’d also need 2 in total at Huddersfield, as turnarounds would be 18 minutes with my calculations of journey times.

Diagram 1 (8 units needed): LDS - BDI - HUD - DEW - LDS - DEW - HUD - BDI - LDS
Diagram 2 (6 units needed): LDS - BDI - DEW - LDS - DEW - BDI - LDS

 

[Neptune]

The issue being that there are no plans in place for electrification of the Calder Valley.

 

[HST43257]

The issue being that there are no plans in place for electrification of the Calder Valley.

If anyone is serious about decarbonisation, WYPTE should be hopefully. Ideally TRU would make it more desirable.

 

[Neptune]

If anyone is serious about decarbonisation, WYPTE should be hopefully. Ideally TRU would make it more desirable.

Even if it was authorised tomorrow you’d be looking probably 5 years into the future minimum.

I am all for electrification and de-carbonisation but I’ve been in this industry far too long to not look at everything realistically.

I also don’t understand why people are so against a cross Leeds service which is and has always been well used and why the Huddersfield - Bradford service is deemed to be such a bad thing. All the stations served have a Leeds service anyway and the prime reason for this service is to link Huddersfield & Brighouse with Halifax & Bradford.

The Halifax - Hull service has done really well with good passenger loadings throughout (pre-COVID) and despite it being a stopper from Leeds - Selby it still takes only slightly longer than the fast TPE service and is well used between Leeds & Hull as it finally provides a well needed second service per hour between these two major cities.

 

[Halish Railway]

It’ll be interesting to see whether it is possible to have two fast trains per hour between Leeds and Hull as well as an hourly all stations EMU Leeds to Selby service - It would be far more suitable than the current offering.

I can only imagine how busy the Halifax to Hull services would be if they went to Bridlington as Arriva originally planned.

 

[Fokx]

Is there really a need for two hourly stopping services Huddersfield to Leeds apart from in the peak hours?

You’ve currently got Northern between Mirfield and Leeds and Mirfield and Huddersfield (albeit not currently) and then the TPE all stations

Deighton and Ravensthorpe are stations where it’s extremely rare to find passengers outside of the peaks

 

[Halish Railway]

Is there really a need for two hourly stopping services Huddersfield to Leeds apart from in the peak hours?

You’ve currently got Northern between Mirfield and Leeds and Mirfield and Huddersfield (albeit not currently) and then the TPE all stations

Deighton and Ravensthorpe are stations where it’s extremely rare to find passengers outside of the peaks

It’s likely (although not confirmed) that the Leeds to Wigan Wallgate service will run non stop between Leeds and Dewsbury so that there are no more diesel stopping services on the most busy stretch of railway.

 

[YorksLad12]

You aren’t wrong, it Is 2 diagrams. However it was being pointed out that the service will eventually double plus a spare should be factored in.

No, you're right in terms of how it is currently, but I think the idea would be to double the stopper (which would then speed up long-distance journeys with trains not needing to stop at Morley, Batley etc.).

Sorry, I should have pointed out that I was referring to if the service went half-hourly.

Thanks, and fair enough. I thought there was still only the one Leeds-Huddersfield stopper post-TRU (plus Huddersfield-Bradford and Huddersfield-Wakefield/Castleford).

 

[Jozhua]

More than two surely? For a thirty minute service (one of WYCA's aspirations IIRC) you'd need at least four, plus spares as cover.

I don't think you understand how UK railways work.

Someone with a shred of sanity comes up with an appropriate length for trains.

The DaFT and Treasury then halve it.

 

[IanXC]

The Halifax to Leeds extension was to retain the Halifax to East Leeds local stations link after the Blackpool North to York route became semifast. There was always a plan to run an EXTRA Halifax to BRADFORD train but not sure why.

Not sure why the trains run through to Hull, there are no additional stops (above the ones served by TPE) beyond Selby, I think the plan was to run through to Bridlington.

Re: electrification, I do remember reading about a plan to extend the wires to Selby and no further? This did seem strange at the time.

Other than maintaining the east Leeds local stops link to Bradford, the Hull - Halifax service, I suspect it came about as part of a Rail North aspiration around city connectivity. Bradford and Hull scored lowest in terms of their rail links to other cities, so clearly running a service between the two is a very effective way of making a dent in those numbers.

 

[Halish Railway]

Other than maintaining the east Leeds local stops link to Bradford, the Hull - Halifax service, I suspect it came about as part of a Rail North aspiration around city connectivity. Bradford and Hull scored lowest in terms of their rail links to other cities, so clearly running a service between the two is a very effective way of making a dent in those numbers.

At least that’s one aspiration that came to light, the same could hardly be said of the services to Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester Airport and Liverpool.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Is there really a need for two hourly stopping services Huddersfield to Leeds apart from in the peak hours?

You’ve currently got Northern between Mirfield and Leeds and Mirfield and Huddersfield (albeit not currently) and then the TPE all stations

Deighton and Ravensthorpe are stations where it’s extremely rare to find passengers outside of the peaks

Deighton and Ravensthorpe are the two least-used stations on the route, so not the ones to use as a benchmark when deciding frequencies. Batley, Mirfield and even poorly-sited Morley are significantly busier and/or have untapped potential. One option would be for a second stopper per hour to omit RVN and DHN, though you then complicate your "Takt" of course.

 

[Halish Railway]

Deighton and Ravensthorpe are the two least-used stations on the route, so not the ones to use as a benchmark when deciding frequencies. Batley, Mirfield and even poorly-sited Morley are significantly busier and/or have untapped potential. One option would be for a second stopper per hour to omit RVN and DHN, though you then complicate your "Takt" of course.

Or you could have 1 train per hour call at Ravensthorpe and the other at Deighton, but have the Huddersfield to Catleford service call at both as the grade separation of Thornhill Junction will mean that Wakefield bound services can call at Ravensthorpe. Interestingly, I jsut realised that both Ravensthorpe and Deighton will have their station relocoted and rebuilt post-TRU.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Or you could have 1 train per hour call at Ravensthorpe and the other at Deighton, but have the Huddersfield to Catleford service call at both as the grade separation of Thornhill Junction will mean that Wakefield bound services can call at Ravensthorpe. Interestingly, I jsut realised that both Ravensthorpe and Deighton will have their station relocoted and rebuilt post-TRU.

Deighton is being rebuilt on its current site under the current plans I believe. I agree that having one of the proposed two HUD-LDS stoppers calling at each would be a decent option. I realise we're getting into the long grass a bit on the topic of new trains for Northern though, perhaps a separate thread is worthwhile?

 

[YorksLad12]

Deighton is being rebuilt on its current site under the current plans I believe. I agree that having one of the proposed two HUD-LDS stoppers calling at each would be a decent option. I realise we're getting into the long grass a bit on the topic of new trains for Northern though, perhaps a separate thread is worthwhile?

Agreed (we could probably have a good discussion on West Yorkshire-plus services from 2027 onwards), but the Castleford/Wakefield-Huddersfield and Leeds-Hebden Bridge-Man Vic services can't be electric-only trains, so still slightly on-topic