New trains are needed now!

[robert2000]

We are not interested in proposals, we want them ordered now because there is now basicly a big concern on overcrowding. We can't live in the future on any class train begining with 15*, i dont like any of them.

WAG are proposing (I hate that word) to put on hold any road projects, for example the Newtown bypass, so they can buy new trains, I cant remember what class but I think they wanted to order 9 in total.

Surely, for the amount of money we are charged on the railways, they cant say they have no money. I'm talking about the UK as a whole.

 

[Meridian richard]

East Midlands trains class 158s arn`t bad at allthey have all been refurbished and in EMTs going places magazine by the autumn half of the fleet will be three cars instead of two

 

[jimrbrobinson]

Unfortunately the country is in a complete financial mess, unemployment looks set to increase over the next few years as we have very little manufacturing industry, service industries are going to the wall left right and centre and now the public sector is going to be hacked to pieces (but taxes will still keep going up to pay for the defecit whilst we get less and less to show for our hard-earned taxes). Perhaps it's time for us think more socially and when we write our letters to Santa this year, instead of a list of things for ourselves, we could ask him for new trains for our rail network???

 

[ainsworth74]

East Midlands trains class 158s arn't bad at allthey have all been refurbished and in EMTs going places magazine by the autumn half of the fleet will be three cars instead of two

How are they going to manage that? Spilt up some of the existing units like FGW (I think) did?

 

[Lampshade]

No 15*? How about we get rid of those bloody Pacers first! hock:

 

[Dewedin]

I like 158s. Pacers definitely have to go first. And if the railways were run as a service this would have happened long ago.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

We need a lot of new things, the money isn't there though, it's in the back pockets of MP's and wasted on silly projects we don't need.

 

[MCR247]

New Trains Are Needed Now!

No s*** sherlock

 

[ainsworth74]

No s*** sherlock

I must admit that was also my initial reaction

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Surely, for the amount of money we are charged on the railways, they cant say they have no money. I'm talking about the UK as a whole.

If you knew how much TOC's get charged for delay minutes then you'd soon understand that after running the service, paying the wages etc etc theres probably not a great deal left, and what with it all being privately owned these days, anything left over goes back to the shareholders.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Surely, . . . . , they cant say they have no money.

They can.
They do.
They're correct.

There is no money.

No attempts to describe things in terms of need, benefit, payback, sustainabilility, regeneration or even (and this was your point, I think) increased market share, can change the arithmetic:
There is no money.
The Credit Limit has been reached.
The Credit history is bad.
The cupboard is bare.

 

[Invincibles]

For arguments sake I pay £126 to travel from Manchester to Bristol and the rest of the train do exactly the same. That is a 4 car voyager so there is a fair bit of money to be made there. £27,090 if I am right. Now how many new carriages can CrossCountry get for that? I think the money is not there really is it because there are only 3 peak trains that could attract anything like that sort of money.

I always think that the relative cost of these things to a train company is vastly understimated compared to the relative cost of a peak fare to the normal passenger.

Hopefully longer franchises will increase the opportunity for pay back and maybe the ROSCOs will order more trains as a result.

 

[Oliver]

They can.
They do.
They're correct.

There is no money.

No attempts to describe things in terms of need, benefit, payback, sustainabilility, regeneration or even (and this was your point, I think) increased market share, can change the arithmetic:
There is no money.
The Credit Limit has been reached.
The Credit history is bad.
The cupboard is bare.

Not exactly correct. It's the Government which has no money, having frittered billions of tax away. Private companies are not all in bad shape and some would be able to invest in new rolling stock if they could see a reasonable business case. The problem is that faced with 7 year franchises with no certainty of extension, even if they do a good job, they would be mad to invest in trains now.

Answer: negotiate longer franchises with incumbents with no extra subsidy, but conditional on them providing new trains. (BTW, it has to be with the incumbents, because the Government can't just rip up existing deals and start a new franchising round.)

 

[wibble]

For arguments sake I pay £126 to travel from Manchester to Bristol and the rest of the train do exactly the same. That is a 4 car voyager so there is a fair bit of money to be made there. £27,090 if I am right. Now how many new carriages can CrossCountry get for that? I think the money is not there really is it because there are only 3 peak trains that could attract anything like that sort of money.

That'd probably pay for the seats in your new carriage, without the upholstery!

 

[Nightrider]

The saddest part is underinvestment in the railways over decades.
Don,t really think you can run a railway on a profit and loss arrangement.
Maybe the fares would just about pay the workers wages but infrastructure needs massive goverment money.

How much is spent on roads every year.
Doubt your average punters road tax would pay enough to repair the nearest pothole.
Driving for most people became a complete chore years ago.
Traffic jams used to be a rush hour event, now the jams can be at 9pm any night of the week.
Either that or we spend all day sitting in traffic.
Not unlike now in fact.

As for airports.....................they seem to have turned into some giant flying version of a witness protection scheme.

 

[Oliver]

The saddest part is underinvestment in the railways over decades.
Don,t really think you can run a railway on a profit and loss arrangement.
Maybe the fares would just about pay the workers wages but infrastructure needs massive goverment money.

How much is spent on roads every year.
Doubt your average punters road tax would pay enough to repair the nearest pothole.
Driving for most people became a complete chore years ago.
Traffic jams used to be a rush hour event, now the jams can be at 9pm any night of the week.
Either that or we spend all day sitting in traffic.
Not unlike now in fact.

As for airports.....................they seem to have turned into some giant flying version of a witness protection scheme.

Thanks for cheering us all up!

 

[MCR247]

For arguments sake I pay £126 to travel from Manchester to Bristol and the rest of the train do exactly the same. That is a 4 car voyager so there is a fair bit of money to be made there. £27,090 if I am right. Now how many new carriages can CrossCountry get for that? I think the money is not there really is it because there are only 3 peak trains

£27,000? None. How much do you think its costs to run that service? Fuel, paths, track access charge? Maintenance?

Also, if other train companys run along the same route, then that money will be split

 

[Greenback]

There's the leasing cost of the trains as well. Plus a share of indirect costs, such as back office admin, salaries, commission payments to other TOC's, heating, lighting, insurance, the provision of mess room facilites, pensions, NI contributions, and VAT to name but a few!

 

[Any Permitted]

What's wrong with 156s? They're perfectly sturdy workhorses. I use a NXEA 156 several times a week and I've never encountered any stock-related problems past a smelly toilet.

To just scrap all the 15* stock would be incredibly short sighted.

 

[Greenback]

What's wrong with 156s? They're perfectly sturdy workhorses. I use a NXEA 156 several times a week and I've never encountered any stock-related problems past a smelly toilet.

To just scrap all the 15* stock would be incredibly short sighted.

Is this in the right thread? I can;t see any suggestion to scrap the 156's or any other stock! Even scrapping Pacers would be ridiculous at the moment.

 

[tbtc]

Is this in the right thread? I can;t see any suggestion to scrap the 156's or any other stock! Even scrapping Pacers would be ridiculous at the moment.

Yes, the OP suggested scrapping all Sprinters. Which is bound to eliminate crowding :roll:

We can't live in the future on any class train begining with 15*, i dont like any of them.

You're right, Greenback, as usual - we can't get rid of Pacers in the next decade as we need new trains for additional capacity and can't afford to withdraw anything yet. Pacers still function, it'd be a luxury to scrap them whilst people can't get seats on existing services

 

[Greenback]

Yes, the OP suggested scrapping all Sprinters. Which is bound to eliminate crowding :roll:





You're right, Greenback, as usual - we can't get rid of Pacers in the next decade as we need new trains for additional capacity and can't afford to withdraw anything yet. Pacers still function, it'd be a luxury to scrap them whilst people can't get seats on existing services

Reads to me more like he was saying that that the 15x's will not have enough capacity in the future. Which is true, as they are struggling now in many places! Still, saying he doesn't like them might mean he proposes getting rid of them all, it's difficult to tell...

 

[route:oxford]

Is this in the right thread? I can;t see any suggestion to scrap the 156's or any other stock!

Definitely not the 156s, they are still a welcome site.

Would a 156 have enough oomph to haul a trailer?

Eire Mk3 push-pull (non-aircon) stock may well form part of the job-lot that is up for sale at the moment.

Could a Eire Mk3 Power Door non-aircon coach, following a bit of work be used as a 156 trailer?

 

[WillPS]

Definitely not the 156s, they are still a welcome site.

Would a 156 have enough oomph to haul a trailer?

Eire Mk3 push-pull (non-aircon) stock may well form part of the job-lot that is up for sale at the moment.

Could a Eire Mk3 Power Door non-aircon coach, following a bit of work be used as a 156 trailer?

156s can work on 1 engine (out of 2) albeit at glacial speeds. I dare say they could potentially haul a trailer but it wouldn't be a "bit" of work.

 

[ukrob]

156s can work on 1 engine (out of 2) albeit at glacial speeds. I dare say they could potentially haul a trailer but it wouldn't be a "bit" of work.

I was recently on a 156 on one engine. They get up to quite a pace but it takes a LONG time. Remember a trailer would not weigh as much as a standard 156 carriage.

Having said that, I would personally reform them into three car units when sufficient stock allows that decrease in units. So never, no doubt.

 

[Any Permitted]

Is this in the right thread? I can;t see any suggestion to scrap the 156's or any other stock! Even scrapping Pacers would be ridiculous at the moment.

In the OP.

We can't live in the future on any class train begining with 15*, i dont like any of them.

I presumed he meant scrapping them and replacing them.

 

[222666]

We certainly need new trains if you look at Wrexham & Shrops they started off with old stock! Also, the culture we have of pushing Pacers or even 150s around unto un/grateful TOCs is getting a bit silly now. Personally I think yes, you should keep old stock going as much as possible, but I think if a TOC has a class of train they should have ALL the units of that class, then each depot can take pride in 'their' trains (Pacers or not! ). It would certainly help with spare parts.

But the biggest help would be if the government & TOCs had a better attitude towards the railway.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Remember a trailer would not weigh as much as a standard 156 carriage.

You are right, it doesn't. Here's the maths:

Mk3 TSO = 34.3 tonnes.

Cl 156 DMS = 36.1 tonnes.
Cl 156 DMSL = 38.6 tonnes.

Class 156 engines are 285hp.

So... the power to weight ratios would be:

Class 156 running normally: 570hp / 74.7 tonnes = 7.63hp / tonne.
Class 156 running on one engine: 285hp / 74.7 tonnes = 3.82hp / tonne.

Class 156 + hypothetical trailer: 570hp / 109 tonnes = 5.23hp / tonne.
Class 156 + trailer, one engine out = 285hp / 109 tonnes = 2.61hp / tonne.

We can conclude from this that yes it is theoretically possible, albeit with a slight loss of performance, but if you lose an engine on a trailer fitted unit you'll really be in trouble as it would be extremely sluggish to get it to somewhere out of the way.


I would say, yes bring the Irish Mk3s over, but use them as loco hauled rakes on the longer routes with fewer stops and use the units thus released to augment other unit diagrams.

 

[tbtc]

yes it is theoretically possible, albeit with a slight loss of performance

I suppose most 156s don't need to run at full capacity to fulifl their duties, but I agree with you there

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Of course, I did the maths based on tare weight, so in practice the power / weight ratios would be lower - especially with a trailer!