New Ticket Design Launched

[Murph]

I'm not saying it is easy, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a ridiculous situation we are in atm where it is impossible for revenue staff to tell in many cases whether a ticket is genuine or not from a cursory glance as there are so many different fonts and styles around. There should only be one style and one font for the whole system. We should never have been in this situation in the first place. The move towards a uniform font is a positive move, even though I am still of the opinion that the proposed design leaves a lot to be desired, but hey, who am I to tell them what to do?

Then again don't get me started on how overpriced IT projects are, and how companies seem to get ripped off left, right and centre even for the most basic tasks.

Hopefully they will put the time and effort in to choose the font wisely. The right choice can make a world of difference to readability, especially for those with less than perfect vision and the micro-text that seems to be a feature on the new format. They also need to take into account readability when it's printed with a row or 2 of dots missing due to a poorly maintained printer, or similar, especially since some TVMs are relatively exposed to the elements. Other considerations are the dot resolution and other characteristics for the common types of printers used in the field. Choosing based on what looks good on the latest very expensive laser printer on the management floors or design agency office could lead to a bad mistake, for example.

It might seem like it should be a quick and easy thing to do, but this is one case where being a little bit thorough and expensive about it can pay off in the long term.

 

[Hassocks5489]

I'm not saying it is easy, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a ridiculous situation we are in atm where it is impossible for revenue staff to tell in many cases whether a ticket is genuine or not from a cursory glance as there are so many different fonts and styles around. There should only be one style and one font for the whole system. We should never have been in this situation in the first place. The move towards a uniform font is a positive move, even though I am still of the opinion that the proposed design leaves a lot to be desired, but hey, who am I to tell them what to do?

Then again don't get me started on how overpriced IT projects are, and how companies seem to get ripped off left, right and centre even for the most basic tasks.

I've recently had sight of an interesting folder of documents called "Ticket design", issued by the Chief Passenger Marketing Manager of BR in 1977. It goes into great detail about the importance of standardisation in ticket formats and fonts, even to the degree of specifying sizes for different types of data. A few extracts:

• "The typeface used for printing will be Univers 55 (Monotype 689) or Helvetica Light or Regular. Condensed versions of typefaces should only be used where space is very limited. Upper and lower-case characters will always be used - NEVER use all capitals."
• "Wherever possible the type sizes used will be: for primary information (e.g. station names) 16pt, for secondary information (e.g. routes) 12pt, for minor information (e.g. conditions) 7 or 8pt."

Then there are detailed illustrated specs for e.g. NCR51 tickets (the big red-bordered thin card ones from the 1970s and 1980s), NCR21s and other Edmondson-sized tickets, Ultimatics, Flexiprinters, pre-printed season tickets and a whole host of others.

So we have moved from fully pre-printed tickets whose design could be tightly controlled by BR, to partly machine-printed tickets (a process which really started properly with the INTIS system and then APTIS in the 1980s, and has continued ever since) where BR could request the machine manufacturers (Westinghouse-Cubic and Thorn EMI respectively) to follow certain design criteria but were not wholly in control of it, to wholly machine-printed tickets where the design of the ticket is essentially in the hands of the machine manufacturer, provided (as I understand it) the overall layout and appearance pass the standards required by Rail Settlement Plan (<<<is my understanding correct on that point?)

Anyway, if we are coming full circle to the point we were at about 40 years ago, I suppose that represents some sort of progress...!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There are perhaps some hidden benefits of a range of designs when it comes to detecting forged tickets. People might use the wrong font for a ticket that is meant to have been printed by a TVM or over the counter. Or get the date spelling wrong etc.

But from a customer point of view, one single design is better.

From that perspective, I think the problem with the new design is that it isn't really standard. Okay, Off-Peak and Anytime might have the same layout, but Advance is different and I haven't seen a ranger, season or excess yet. This change is being pitched to staff as "more customer-friendly".

 

[bb21]

This change is being pitched to staff as "more customer-friendly".

But not necessarily "staff-friendly" I am led to believe from some guards.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

But not necessarily "staff-friendly" I am led to believe from some guards.

I personally don't have a problem and have got used to them now as I have seen quite a lot.

I think lots of people seem to get confused if there is any change at all. Many still hark back to the days of Sportis and how wonderful they were, when in reality for most tasks, Avantix is far better in many cases (not that Avantix doesn't have it's faults).

What will happen with the Avantix replacement, which I understand is due sometime in 2016 but has already been developed and tested in an office environment, which I am led to believe is radically different, produces bus type small paper tickets, and so far has no ability to do Excess fares etc - apparently this facility is reportedly to be removed - but that remains to be seen.

 

[bb21]

I personally don't have a problem and have got used to them now as I have seen quite a lot.

I think lots of people seem to get confused if there is any change at all. Many still hark back to the days of Sportis and how wonderful they were, when in reality for most tasks, Avantix is far better in many cases (not that Avantix doesn't have it's faults).

I certainly hope that it is the case, otherwise it would be a travesty to push ahead with it even if feedback is poor.

Perhaps over time some of those guards would change their mind too but we will see.

What will happen with the Avantix replacement, which I understand is due sometime in 2016 but has already been developed and tested in an office environment, which I am led to believe is radically different, produces bus type small paper tickets, and so far has no ability to do Excess fares etc - apparently this facility is reportedly to be removed - but that remains to be seen.

If mag stripe tickets were to stay in general, a move to bus style ticket rolls will be a step in the wrong direction I believe, likewise the inability to issue excess fares. I think we will have to wait for more details on it to come out and see what they were really up to.

 

[island]

I could believe a move to non-magnetic tickets as printing on bus style roll-fed thermal paper would be immeasurably cheaper.

Whether passengers would put up with having to be let through manual ticket gates is quite another matter.

 

[jon0844]

Should be nice and easy to counterfeit those. Although my bus gives me tickets on 'secure' paper which is watermarked a bit like a bank note, I have no doubt it will be very easy to create fake tickets on fake paper - and without any magstrip, and the requirement to be let out by staff manually, this will be a great scam to hear about in future years.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I could believe a move to non-magnetic tickets as printing on bus style roll-fed thermal paper would be immeasurably cheaper.

We already did that for several years with (S)PORTIS, and the current version of Avantix still has paper roll support as well as fanfold magstripe stock. This is fine if you're in an area with few barriers, otherwise it's a pain in the arse for passengers and the Ticket Office staff who end up exchanging them for encoded stock.

 

[ModernRailways]

Should be nice and easy to counterfeit those. Although my bus gives me tickets on 'secure' paper which is watermarked a bit like a bank note, I have no doubt it will be very easy to create fake tickets on fake paper - and without any magstrip, and the requirement to be let out by staff manually, this will be a great scam to hear about in future years.

That 'secure' paper is a joke. I photocopied a bus ticket (it was expired, so don't jump on me) just to see how close my own cheap photocopier would be able to copy the ticket and low and behold it turned out very similar. If it was in a ticket wallet then you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The only main noticeable difference was the print & paper quality, but that's easily changed.

 

[Starmill]

Whether passengers would put up with having to be let through manual ticket gates is quite another matter.

What makes you think they will have a say in it?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If mag stripe tickets were to stay in general, a move to bus style ticket rolls will be a step in the wrong direction I believe, likewise the inability to issue excess fares. I think we will have to wait for more details on it to come out and see what they were really up to.

I can see this. The rules are subtly changed such that all excesses are withdrawn. The TOCs would love that, right? And there is a precedent in TOC ONLY fares, which you can't excess from already.

 

[Bletchleyite]

SBB tickets are printed on the same roll-type paper wherever you get them - be that from the S&B TVMs of both generations, the ticket office (I think) or on board (though you can't do that any more). It's more substantial than a bus ticket with a "silver" overprint on one end, I imagine it is quite secure.

No magstripe, though. Which would seem a retrograde step unless some other technology (barcodes?) is to be used.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can see this. The rules are subtly changed such that all excesses are withdrawn. The TOCs would love that, right? And there is a precedent in TOC ONLY fares, which you can't excess from already.

I could see them being withdrawn in favour of refund and reissue (with admin fee, or possibly without in some cases) if there is ever a move to all-single pricing at any point. All a big if though - I don't even know if it is being considered.

Neil

 

[yorkie]

Saw a new style Advance ticket for the first time the other day. I actually think it looks quite good, certainly much better than the new style walk up tickets do.

Hmm, I wonder if you met asharpe? He travels from Yorkshire to your station quite often! You must have encountered each other, unknowingly, at some point! Maybe we'll get you both to the same forum meal one day.

Can only two "booked" trains fit on the ticket, or if there's three, do they bunch them up and get rid of the padding?

It's good that non-reservable connecting services are not shown, otherwise people may think they are bound to catch them.

It's unfortunate that trains which are 'semi' reserveable, and are used as connections, are printed, but that's a failing shared with the current system, and I can't see any solution in sight

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's good that non-reservable connecting services are not shown, otherwise people may think they are bound to catch them.

I think that's actually a shame because you still need your itinerary. If everything was printed, you wouldn't. I do see your point, but there must surely be a way of indicating that, e.g. the SUGGESTED SERVICE text you used to get on ATB tickets.

Neil

 

[ASharpe]

Hmm, I wonder if you met asharpe? He travels from Yorkshire to your station quite often! You must have encountered each other, unknowingly, at some point! Maybe we'll get you both to the same forum meal one day.

Probably not me, but it might have been. (EDIT: seen the picture of the ticket, not one of mine)

I don't often get the new style tickets, Halifax and Bradford Interchange stations still issue the old style ones. It's usually when I have a while waiting for a train at Leeds and collect a few tickets that I get the new ones.

SWT guards do look at them very carefully.

 

[button_boxer]

The EMT collection-only machine in Sheffield University SU has started printing the new style now (at least it did for the no-reservations Off-Peak Return I just collected).

 

[CyrusWuff]

For the benefit of those with KnowledgeBase access, the brief mentioned upthread can be found in the "Ticket Stock and Literature" section.

 

[TEW]

Can only two "booked" trains fit on the ticket, or if there's three, do they bunch them up and get rid of the padding?

Yes. The new Advance tickets will only show up to 2 reservations. Any more than that and all reservations will be printed on a separate coupon. Still in the new style though so it should at least cut down the number of coupons people need.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

SWT guards do look at them very carefully.

Up until recently it was pretty rare to see the new style tickets round here, which probably explains the extra attention. Since EMT have started printing them they've become a lot more common. I expect they'll receive less attention as guards get used to them.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Can anyone spot the problems here?

 

[Hassocks5489]

Can anyone spot the problems here?

Those fares look suspect...! I hope they are not meant to be one Adult FAM ticket and one Child FAM ticket, but I have a horrible feeling that they should be... In which case, that is a serious programming error.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Those fares look suspect...! I hope they are not meant to be one Adult FAM ticket and one Child FAM ticket, but I have a horrible feeling that they should be... In which case, that is a serious programming error.

Yep!

There is one other very important error too.

For info the passenger stated they used the SSTM and selected 1 adult and 1 child using Family Railcard on the same transaction.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Matching ticket numbers?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Matching ticket numbers?

Yes. Didn't think you were meant to have 2 tickets with the same serial number from the same machine consecutively!

 

[Hassocks5489]

Yes. Didn't think you were meant to have 2 tickets with the same serial number from the same machine consecutively!

Normally you shouldn't, as far as I'm aware. But I've recently had sight of two tickets issued at one of the newish Parkeon TVMs at Haymarket* on 9/12/2014, again for a FAM and a CHFAM, on which the serial numbers were the same. Perhaps we are seeing a move from serial numbers towards transaction numbers, where all tickets that are part of the same transaction are identically numbered? - A bad idea in my opinion!

*Still old-style (standard) layout.

 

[bb21]

I think the fact that the adult ticket is described "Under 16" is of more importance than common serial numbers, as I suspect that for some reason the machine might have printed the same ticket twice. Note the "child discount" rhombus that is present on the adult ticket.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I think the fact that the adult ticket is described "Under 16" is of more importance than common serial numbers, as I suspect that for some reason the machine might have printed the same ticket twice. Note the "child discount" rhombus that is present on the adult ticket.

Whilst that's true, they both have different prices printed on them...Oops.

 

[jon0844]

Is the line spacing ever going to be fixed?

Text overlapping the orange area, lines touching each other, and larger gaps elsewhere...

Very messy.

Unless it's a very clever anti-fraud system. As in a fraudster would possibly try and correct these mistakes and be told 'Sorry mate, that ticket was readable so it's obviously fake. Off to jail!'.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is the line spacing ever going to be fixed?

Text overlapping the orange area, lines touching each other, and larger gaps elsewhere...

Very messy.

Unless it's a very clever anti-fraud system. As in a fraudster would possibly try and correct these mistakes and be told 'Sorry mate, that ticket was readable so it's obviously fake. Off to jail!'.

Once every TVM in the country is printing 'off target' they'll probably fix it by using different ticket stock... :roll:

 

[jon0844]

I did think that would be a simple solution, but look how long it has taken to just change from the old design to the newer one (with space for endorsements on the back).

I think I discovered on here that given the mass production of the ticket stock, any change will probably take months, possibly even years, to fully filter through to every single ticket office, TVM etc.

 

[northernman]

Hi,

Interesting observation with matching ticket numbers, given all transactions have to be settled through the industry system and therefore need to be unique, I would suggest that is a fault in the TVM that issued them. I will raise it with the supplier and RSP.

cheers

Ian