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A passenger came to me recently and showed me a photograph of a Northern advance single on his phone, his ticket was booked for a train which had left nearly an hour earlier. I quoted him the price of a new single to the station he wanted to travel to, as the rules state that the original ticket can't be excessed beyond the time of the booked train, plus his original ticket wasn't valid in screenshot form. He paid for the new ticket, however the passengers he was travelling with complained about the cost of this and asked why I couldn't just charge a minimal difference. I explained the rules of advance tickets, but they walked off with the fare-paying passenger describing me as a 'jobsworth'. In this scenario is it absolutely correct to issue a new ticket, or should I/booking offices in general exercise discretion and bend the rules a bit to keep passengers happy?
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Regardless, it sounds like you used discretion by not reporting the passenger for prosecution for boarding the train without a valid ticket. Oh, but are you at a booking office? In which case I’d say you did the right thing.
A passenger came to me recently and showed me a photograph of a Northern advance single on his phone, his ticket was booked for a train which had left nearly an hour earlier. I quoted him the price of a new single to the station he wanted to travel to, as the rules state that the original ticket can't be excessed beyond the time of the booked train, plus his original ticket wasn't valid in screenshot form. He paid for the new ticket, however the passengers he was travelling with complained about the cost of this and asked why I couldn't just charge a minimal difference. I explained the rules of advance tickets, but they walked off with the fare-paying passenger describing me as a 'jobsworth'. In this scenario is it absolutely correct to issue a new ticket, or should I/booking offices in general exercise discretion and bend the rules a bit to keep passengers happy?
If the circumstances indicate that the passenger couldn't have travelled on their booked train, I agree it would be pragmatic to apply discretion and to offer to exceed their ticket up to a walk-up ticket. However, I would not suggest doing anything that would get you into trouble with your employer - and their rules likely dictate that you apply the industry rules correctly rather than showing discretion.
Whilst by some definitions of the term, this may make you a "jobsworth" - at the end of the day you have to put your employment before someone else's interests.
Yes, absolutely correct. I would say that an hour after departure is far too late for discretion - a few minutes, maybe, but not an hour. If they don't like it you give them the details of where to address their complaint.
@Philip. Did the passenger offer any plausible "explanation" as to why they were rocking up almost an hour late?
Otherwise, if they were wanting to avail themselves of more flexible travel, perhaps they should consider purchasing other than booked train only advance tickets.
There was no explanation, they just rolled up nearly an hour after their booked train had departed. When I say a screenshot, it looked more like a photograph of the ticket on someone else's device, as the photo of the ticket was slanted.
There was no explanation, they just rolled up nearly an hour after their booked train had departed. When I say a screenshot, it looked more like a photograph of the ticket on someone else's device, as the photo of the ticket was slanted.
That's not correct; screenshots of eTickets are always acceptable as their scan history is centrally recorded. It's screenshots of mTickets that are not, as their legitimacy is verified by the animated portion of the ticket.
SWR for one specifically state on their website that screenshots of e-tickets are not acceptable, I haven't come across any which state that a photo or screenshot IS valid. Revenue gateline staff are also within their rights to refuse entry to a station if a passenger's e-ticket screenshot or photo isn't opening the barrier, if they suspect a fraudulent attempt to travel.
As I say, SWR specifically state that screenshots aren't valid. And the TOC I work for (and probably most others) don't encourage screenshots and permit guards & gateline staff to refuse an e-ticket if the barcode isn't scanning. And if someone prints out numerous copies of one e-ticket, only one barcode will be accepted whem scanning at the barrier.
The premise of the thread however is about expired advance tickets.
It's disappointing to still see people saying that screenshots aren't valid for e-tickets. I thought this issue had been done to death and resolved.
If someone decides to use a screenshot then, as long as it's still readable, it's valid. If someone decides to print 6 copies then they're all valid. I travel with printed copies and with copies in my Apple Wallet, although I don't personally find an advantage in using a screenshot.
If someone creates a screenshot with poor resolution or other errors which means it's not readable, it's not valid. Their fault. Understood.
There was a stink some years ago which made the national press about someone's mother (implication old, frail, etc.) using a screenshot and being forced to buy a new ticket.
The industry tries to make people use e-tickets, mainly for its advantage, but also because a lot of people like them, and then shoots itself in the foot by saying that screenshots aren't valid. It's just frustrating to see.
Why would it need to be stated? There isn't a difference between a photo or screenshot and a printout. It's literally the same thing.
Exactly the same as a screenshot then. Glad we've cleared that up. Sorry but you don't know what you're talking about here.
I think you'll find that I do. There have been a lot of instances where passengers have presented a photo of an e-ticket for scanning and it hasn't been accepted at the gate, because the scanner couldn't read the barcode correctly. I notice you have ignored my comment about SWR specifically stating that screenshots aren't acceptable.
The simple solution to avoid running into problems with photos of e-tickets is to take responsibility and download the ticket correctly and present on the device, or print it out in paper form. That's what the TOCs instruct passengers to do, the reason they don't say screenshots are acceptable and in some cases state that they're not acceptable is because of the potential to for them to run into problems when being scanned.
A passenger came to me recently and showed me a photograph of a Northern advance single on his phone, his ticket was booked for a train which had left nearly an hour earlier. I quoted him the price of a new single to the station he wanted to travel to, as the rules state that the original ticket can't be excessed beyond the time of the booked train, plus his original ticket wasn't valid in screenshot form. He paid for the new ticket, however the passengers he was travelling with complained about the cost of this and asked why I couldn't just charge a minimal difference. I explained the rules of advance tickets, but they walked off with the fare-paying passenger describing me as a 'jobsworth'. In this scenario is it absolutely correct to issue a new ticket, or should I/booking offices in general exercise discretion and bend the rules a bit to keep passengers happy?
You're correct to sell a new ticket on the grounds of the booked train being earlier than the one they boarded. However, e-tickets can be presented in any format the user desires, including a screenshot. The proof of validity is simply that the barcode scans and nothing resulting from that says it's cancelled etc (and it's otherwise valid). If Northern are training staff otherwise they need to pack it in.
SWR for one specifically state on their website that screenshots of e-tickets are not acceptable, I haven't come across any which state that a photo or screenshot IS valid. Revenue gateline staff are also within their rights to refuse entry to a station if a passenger's e-ticket screenshot or photo isn't opening the barrier, if they suspect a fraudulent attempt to travel.
And yet on the train they are perfectly acceptable, and the SWR guard's equipment reads them. If I get it emailed to my laptop but want to show it on my phone in the train, how else?
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You're correct to sell a new ticket on the grounds of the booked train being earlier than the one they boarded. However, e-tickets can be presented in any format the user desires, including a screenshot. The proof of validity is simply that the barcode scans and nothing resulting from that says it's cancelled etc (and it's otherwise valid). If Northern are training staff otherwise they need to pack it in.
Therevare numerous problems with this, one that screenshots or as in this case a photograph are prone to failing when being scanned, because of faults with the screen, the photograph not being clear etc.
If a passenger's e-ticket was valid and downloaded or printed, but rejected at the barrier, then they would be permitted to travel on the grounds of the barrier scanner possibly being faulty. If the ticket was rejected because it was a photo or one of numerous printed copies of the same ticket, then the revenue staff would be within their rights to refuse entry, or for the guard to charge for a new ticket, because of the potential for it being used fraudulently.
I'll reword my initial post to say that screenshots of tickets are valid, if the scanner accepts them, however there is more potential for problems and rejection of the ticket compared with pdf files or printed versions, because of problems reading the screen. That's why a lot of TOCs only mention pdf or print out and don't recommend using a screenshot.
If a passenger prints numerous copies of the same ticket to give to accompanying passengers, the scanners at my TOC's stations will accept one copy but then reject the others, to prevent fraud. Providing no fault with the scanner, it should have no problem reading a valid ticket in paper or pdf form.
However there is a grey area if a seemingly valid e-ticket is displayed on the phone in screenshot-form and the scanner rejects, as it could either be because of fraudulent use with the passenger having been sent a screenshot or taken a photo of someone else's ticket, or because there is a problem with the device screen, or a blurred photo. Revenue staff have to make a decision in this scenario and if they suspect fraudulent use, they are allowed to refuse the ticket.
This is why TOCs don't like to promote screenshots of e-tickets & in some cases state they're invalid, and by promoting them here people are undermining the TOCs.
If a passenger prints numerous copies of the same ticket to give to accompanying passengers, the scanners at my TOC's stations will accept one copy but then reject the others, to prevent fraud. Providing no fault with the scanner, it should have no problem reading a valid ticket in paper or pdf form.
If a passenger's e-ticket was valid and downloaded or printed, but rejected at the barrier, then they would be permitted to travel on the grounds of the barrier scanner possibly being faulty.
If a ticket is rejected by a barrier, the staff should be scanning the ticket to establish why, not assuming that it's a fault with the scanner. Many fare dodgers rely on staff not checking the barcode and get away with it.
However there is a grey area if a seemingly valid e-ticket is displayed on the phone in screenshot-form and the scanner rejects, as it could either be because of fraudulent use with the passenger having been sent a screenshot or taken a photo of someone else's ticket, or because there is a problem with the device screen, or a blurred photo. Revenue staff have to make a decision in this scenario and if they suspect fraudulent use, they are allowed to refuse the ticket.
In simple terms if a barcode cannot be scanned successfully, and the holder only has a screenshot, then they do not hold a valid ticket and should be denied travel.
This is why TOCs don't like to promote screenshots of e-tickets & in some cases state they're invalid, and by promoting them here people are undermining the TOCs.
The thing about screenshots not being valid mostly dates back to m-tickets, which have largely gone away (except ScotRail?), and s-tickets/flexi seasons which sadly have not largely gone away.
If a ticket fails to scan then whatever format it's presented in it needs to be established why, and if the ticket is such that it can't be scanned (e.g. blurred or badly cracked screen) then it has no validity. The barcode is the ticket, essentially - what's printed on it is just an aid to recognising what it purports to be. (A common fraud is editing PDFs to change the text which is very easily done, so the only way to be sure is to scan - and editing Apple Wallet passes isn't an awful lot harder).
However there is a grey area if a seemingly valid e-ticket is displayed on the phone in screenshot-form and the scanner rejects, as it could either be because of fraudulent use with the passenger having been sent a screenshot or taken a photo of someone else's ticket, or because there is a problem with the device screen, or a blurred photo. Revenue staff have to make a decision in this scenario and if they suspect fraudulent use, they are allowed to refuse the ticket.
Or, you know, they could use the tools issued to them by Northern (e.g. the Inspect app) to view the scan history which would make it totally obvious if the ticket is being used multiple times.
If a passenger's e-ticket was valid and downloaded or printed, but rejected at the barrier, then they would be permitted to travel on the grounds of the barrier scanner possibly being faulty.
If this is the standard of Northern's revenue training then no wonder barrier staff have a shoddy reputation. By your logic if I bought an e-ticket, digitally edited the date before printing it out and then turned up at the station I'd be waved through despite it not working the barrier. But if I had a totally genuine e-ticket screenshot and it didn't work the barrier I would potentially be refused travel (even though it could be poor programming on the barrier that rejects the ticket).
I'm just saying that a screenshot is more likely to be rejected than a pdf or printed copy, for the reasons given, and so it's understandable for TOCs to be keen not to promote this method. It isn't practical to have gateline & revenue staff at busy stations having to regularly look into why scanners are rejecting barcodes, and it holds things up for passengers queuing behind. A passenger who has fraudulently obtained a screenshot of a valid ticket and has had the barcode rejected could claim that their phone screen is faulty, this puts the revenue staff in a difficult position about whether to accept or refuse - it's easier said than done about making a decsion in these circumstances.
A pdf or printed version is less likely to go wrong if it's valid, so that's why people should be encouraged to download or print off, it's a simple enough procedure.
This is why TOCs don't like to promote screenshots of e-tickets & in some cases state they're invalid, and by promoting them here people are undermining the TOCs.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread "promoting" the use of screenshots.
What's happening here is that you came here for advice. One of the things you told the customer was that a screenshot of an eticket isn't permitted. It was politely and nicely pointed out to you, several times in a row, that what you said wouldn't be correct. The correct position has been established very ably by quite a few of us now, and is based on fact. A ticket must be clearly legible, both the text and the barcode. If it is, it's valid for travel in accordance with its terms, however it may be that it is then displayed. I'm sure what you said isn't really a problem in this case, since the customer couldn't have used their ticket no matter what, nor paid for it to be amended.
If you don't wish to accept that advice, then that's absolutely fine, but be prepared to be told that you're incorrect. It's a minor point, but hypothetically it's one which something could in future turn on for you at work, however unlikely. By giving you complete and correct advice based on fact, people are actually looking out for your own interests in your job, by preventing any complaints that you didn't give totally correct advice to a customer for example.
If you don't want any advice, that's also absolutely fine. Might I suggest maybe don't ask for it if that's the case?
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I think you'll find that I do. There have been a lot of instances where passengers have presented a photo of an e-ticket for scanning and it hasn't been accepted at the gate, because the scanner couldn't read the barcode correctly. I notice you have ignored my comment about SWR specifically stating that screenshots aren't acceptable.
The reason I didn't respond to it was to give you another chance to climb down politely, before accusing you of simply picking on one single piece of evidence that you think supports your argument, while ignoring the rest because it doesn't. It comes across as if you aren't interested in the actual truth, just in being right.
It's not as if posting something that's technically wrong is a problem. I was wrong several times in a recent thread, writing SWR when it was actually SWT for example or in another one about which trains don't stop at Wivenhoe, but just accepted the correction when someone replied pointing that out.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread "promoting" the use of screenshots.
What's happening here is that you came here for advice. One of the things you told the customer was that a screenshot of an eticket isn't permitted. It was politely and nicely pointed out to you, several times in a row, that what you said wouldn't be correct. The correct position has been established very ably by quite a few of us now, and is based on fact. A ticket must be clearly legible, both the text and the barcode. If it is, it's valid for travel in accordance with its terms, however it may be that it is then displayed. I'm sure what you said isn't really a problem in this case, since the customer couldn't have used their ticket no matter what, nor paid for it to be amended.
If you don't wish to accept that advice, then that's absolutely fine, but be prepared to be told that you're incorrect. It's a minor point, but hypothetically it's one which something could in future turn on for you at work, however unlikely. By giving you complete and correct advice based on fact, people are actually looking out for your own interests in your job, by preventing any complaints that you didn't give totally correct advice to a customer for example.
If you don't want any advice, that's also absolutely fine. Might I suggest maybe don't ask for it if that's the case?
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The reason I didn't respond to it was to give you another chance to climb down politely, before accusing you of simply picking on one single piece of evidence that you think supports your argument, while ignoring the rest because it doesn't. It comes across as if you aren't interested in the actual truth, just in being right.
It's not as if posting something that's technically wrong is a problem. I was wrong several times in a recent thread, writing SWR when it was actually SWT for example or in another one about which trains don't stop at Wivenhoe, but just accepted the correction when someone replied pointing that out.
Ok well I accept that I got it wrong in saying that the e-ticket was not valid in photograph form, it was the fact that it was a slanted photograph which made it look suspicious and knowing that railcards are not valid as screenshots (or has that since changed?), I assumed this barcode ticket wasn't acceptable either. To be fair I've never come across an e-ticket presented the way this one was before, all the ones I've seen you wouldn't know the difference between a pdf and a screenshot.
I think I have made some good points about why it's better not to rely on a screenshot with e-tickets. I'm sorry I've come across suspicious and argumentative against posts challenging what I initially said, but I accept you were giving good advice for future reference here.
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