New Thames Crossings

[telstarbox]

The Mayor has announced three 'definite' crossings of the Thames east of Tower Bridge, and two 'possible' ones:

These new crossings will help all types of road users – from pedestrians and cyclists to drivers. They include:
-a new bridge for pedestrians and cyclists between Rotherhithe and Canary Wharf
-a greener Silvertown Tunnel
-a new extension of the DLR to Thamesmead

Other ideas being looked at are:
-a new riverbus between Canary Wharf and North Greenwich
-a new river crossing from Barking Riverside towards south east London

We believe that all these new crossings, along with the future Elizabeth line, can be finished in the next five to ten years. This will help rebalance the historic lack of river crossings in this part of London.

https://www.london.gov.uk/transport/londons-river-transport/more-river-crossings-all-londoners

Going through the list:

Rotherhithe pedestrian and cycle bridge (the 'Brunel Bridge') - seems the most deliverable and has the lowest cost; would ease pressure on the Jubilee line.

Silvertown Tunnel - controversial but will probably get built as the existing road crossings (Blackwall Tunnel and Woolwich Ferry) are currently very slow routes.

DLR extension to Thamesmead (from Gallions Reach) - great idea and will open up the area.

Riverbus - not sure about this one - is it also to reduce pressure on the Jubilee line between Canary Wharf and North Greenwich, or to provide a link into Canary Wharf Crossrail? The Thames Clipper links the west side of CW with North Greenwich but there are currently no ferry stops on the east side of CW / the west side of the Peninsula.

Barking Riverside to Thamesmead - would also be useful and if it links to Abbey Wood, would open up more journeys between Kent and Essex.

 

[John Webb]

As a former resident of Woolwich, I can say with certainty that there have been plans for a river crossing to replace the Free Ferry, usually a bridge, since before WW2. I can recall my parents pointing out a short length of road near the Royal Artillery headquarters and saying that was the intended start of a bridge across the river, but the plans were scrapped with the onset of WW2.
Then as Becton gasworks closed down and Thamesmead was developed, there was a suggestion that a bridge be built across there, just downstream of the entrance to the Royal group of Docks, roughly where the new DLR crossing is proposed - I'm not clear if this is a tunnel or bridge? Perhaps a combined road/rail bridge could be built?
The Silvertown tunnel is a new one to me - I assume it is designed to take traffic to/from the A13 away from the Blackwall tunnel to relieve the pressure on that. But it wouldn't do much to replace/relieve the Free Ferry.

 

[telstarbox]

Silvertown is to provide relief for the Blackwall Tunnel - I don't think the Woolwich Ferry is to be withdrawn as TfL are buying two new boats to replace the existing three.

(Incidentally, there's an interesting GLC film about the construction of the Woolwich terminals here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c95eoKiDmEw )

The DLR crossing will almost certainly be a tunnel as a new bridge would have to be very high above the water to provide clearance for shipping.

 

[Castle Cary]

Two points come to mind. The ferry is not really deemed to be an alternative to the tunnel(s) but is a necessary alternative for hazardous loads.
A pedestrian bridge between Rotherhithe and Canary Wharf would need to be of substantial height or include a complex opening mechanism if the quite large cruise ships, military ships, Tall Ships and even the high masted Thames Sailing Barges are still to get to the Pool of London. It is not unusual for the Bridge to be lifted a dozen times in a single day, so the traffic can be substantial.

 

[telstarbox]

It is intended to be some sort of opening design for this reason - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherhithe_crossing

 

[edwin_m]

I would have thought if Canary Wharf to North Greenwich was a viable riverbus route the Thames Clippers would be serving it today. It's a bit of a walk from CW eastwards to the nearest part of the river so never going to be time-competitive with the Tube for that journey, although there may be some value for the area east of CW.

The bridge at the other end of CW looks a better bet. CW Tube is closer to the east end of the development and Canada Water station is a long way from the river in that direction. I seem to remember the ferry here was an absolute rip-off, should have offered a discount at low tide when it only travelled about a third of the distance.

 

[deltic]

Silvertown tunnel is going to Public Inquiry this month - its aim is to relieve congestion at Blackwall - both tunnels will be tolled

 

[PermitToTravel]

I wonder how much relief Blackwall and the Ferry would actually need if the tolls worked the sensible way round - charge to use the London river crossings, and allow use of the motorway for free

With Blackwall, Silvertown, and Dartford all having the same charge for a crossing, it'll be very interesting to see how traffic distributes itself across the trio

 

[John Webb]

The institution of the Woolwich Free Ferry was as the behest of the public and businesses around Woolwich as they were paying rates, but did not have the benefit of a bridge to get them across the Thames as other ratepayers further west did.

Personally I am against tolls for essential roads, and would hate to see the free ferry no longer free! (Interesting they are getting new boats to replace the 1963 ones - I can recall many pleasant rides on the old steamers as a young lad which these boats replaced!)

 

[jopsuk]

Silvertown tunnel may be intended to relieve congestion, but it won't

 

[deltic]

Silvertown tunnel may be intended to relieve congestion, but it won't

Depends on how you define congestion- it will certainly remove all the present queueing at the crossing itself and the use of tolls means that the total volume of traffic crossing will be roughly the same as today.

 

[Busaholic]

I wouldn't assume that the Woolwich Free Ferry is safe just because two new boats have been ordered. All the official stuff I've seen in recent years has mentioned its possible/probable replacement by a fixed crossing, and the boats could quickly get the heave-ho in the event of a Silvertown crossing opening. There is also a clue in the non-ordering of a spare boat! Blackwall Tunnel tolling would cause a lot of resentment, not just in the immediate area. The main traffic flows are northbound in the morning peak and southbound p.m. so it would be residents of S.E. London and Kent who would suffer financially. Given these areas have the worst transport infrastructure in Greater London and the immediate surrounding area, the least that should be done would be to ensure existing crossings remain toll-free. Barking Riverside should get a RAIL crossing to the Thamesmead area, whether or not it co-exists with a road crossing. A toll crossing would imo be more justifiable in that location, relieving the Dartford crossing as it would.

 

[deltic]

Woolwich ferry will survive until a road bridge goes in due to prohibition of certain traffic using the tunnels. No tolls no Silvertown tunnel whether people like it or not

 

[jopsuk]

with a bus service, supposedly including a revival of the idea from Dartford of bespoke bike buses, through the Silvertown Tunnel the idea of the Dangleway as an actual transport route is pretty much dead.

Some will no doubt point out that the Dartford fleet was withdrawn and scrapped quickly due to lack of use. But that was a relatively remote service. With the general surge in cycling in central London and this service being very much within populated areas there's more chance of success.

The Dartford buses were weird things- the entire lower level was for bikes, with special loading docks giving level access to both sides and a set of steep steps starting at platform level on both sides to the upper passenger deck

 

[contractador]

As a former resident, I am very in favour. The lack of river crossings is very frustrating, I believe the former Mayor once saying that "in East London, those on the opposite side of the river may as well be in France." Perhaps a slight exaggeration but captures the sentiment well.

That said, all articles are relatively thin on detail in terms of likely delivery etc. Does anyone on the forum know how far this project has reached or has yet to progress?

 

[deltic]

As a former resident, I am very in favour. The lack of river crossings is very frustrating, I believe the former Mayor once saying that "in East London, those on the opposite side of the river may as well be in France." Perhaps a slight exaggeration but captures the sentiment well.

That said, all articles are relatively thin on detail in terms of likely delivery etc. Does anyone on the forum know how far this project has reached or has yet to progress?

It is about to through the public inquiry process all background papers are on the national infrastructure commission website.

 

[PeterC]

those on the opposite side of the river may as well be in France.

In that there is a decent train service but its a bit of a pig if you want to drive.

No doubt if the planned and existing road tunnels are tolled drivers will require a separate account to both the congestion charge and the Dartford crossing.

 

[LeylandLen]

Look at congestion and extra pressures on current crossings due to closure of Tower Bridge for 3 months for essential maintenance .(still open usually for pedestrians and cyclists if they dismount)

 

[Clip]

DLR are already in the throws of trying to purchase the land by their Beckton Depot to build a new one for more trains with a view to the DLR crossing being given the go ahead as their present depot could be expanded a little but not by much to berth trains. But Newham want some of that land also to build new homes and im not sure who has got it if any has.

Especially if the work to build over poplar depot to extend the Canary Wharf estate goes ahead so make of that what you will.

 

[CNash]

I'm a little concerned about the scope of the DLR extension. If it just runs to Thamesmead, then Abbey Wood may well be close by but it's not likely to be a direct connection. Anyone wanting to change for Southeastern or Crossrail will need to make their way there via the roads, which are already congested in that area.

Extending it down to Abbey Wood would help, but no idea on how feasible this is while the Crossrail works are still ongoing. Another option could be to extend further east to Belvedere, where there's potential for Crossrail to extend to as well.

 

[Clip]

I'm a little concerned about the scope of the DLR extension. If it just runs to Thamesmead, then Abbey Wood may well be close by but it's not likely to be a direct connection. Anyone wanting to change for Southeastern or Crossrail will need to make their way there via the roads, which are already congested in that area.

Extending it down to Abbey Wood would help, but no idea on how feasible this is while the Crossrail works are still ongoing. Another option could be to extend further east to Belvedere, where there's potential for Crossrail to extend to as well.

Its not meant to be a connection for crossrail though as that will happen at Custom house for anyone wanting it from the eastern branch

 

[Busaholic]

Woolwich ferry will survive until a road bridge goes in due to prohibition of certain traffic using the tunnels. No tolls no Silvertown tunnel whether people like it or not

A toll for Silvertown tunnel (which may be inevitable) is a different matter to tolling Blackwall - if the latter, then why not Rotherhithe?!

 

[deltic]

A toll for Silvertown tunnel (which may be inevitable) is a different matter to tolling Blackwall - if the latter, then why not Rotherhithe?!

TfL's proposal is that both Blackwell and Silvertown will be tolled - you- can't toll one and not the other. Rotherhithe will remain free - it is so constrained that it can't take much traffic so little will divert to it.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A toll for Silvertown tunnel (which may be inevitable) is a different matter to tolling Blackwall - if the latter, then why not Rotherhithe?!

The Blackwall and Silvertown tunnels will have their southern entrances in almost the same place, so tolling only one of them would be unworkable - it would result in massive queues on the free tunnel, and very little traffic in the tolled one!

The point of tolling is partly to pay for building the crossing, and partly to try to deter traffic from using it - to offset the increase in traffic that would otherwise be caused by the new crossing. Many of the roads around the Southern entrance to the Blackwall tunnel are already at capacity and frequently get very congested as it is. If the crossing was built without tolls, the resultant increase in traffic would probably cause chaos and gridlock in large parts of Greenwich and Charlton.

I do think that failing to toll Rotherhithe is going to prove a mistake - since that will cause an increase in traffic levels around that tunnel as some people try to avoid the tolls. Much of London is already choking under the pressure of too many journeys being made by private car, and there's a desperate need to discourage people from driving if they don't have to. Tolling does provide one partial solution to that - with a double benefit if the funds raised go to TfL and can therefore be used to invest in transport.

 

[Mojo]

I would have thought if Canary Wharf to North Greenwich was a viable riverbus route the Thames Clippers would be serving it today. It's a bit of a walk from CW eastwards to the nearest part of the river so never going to be time-competitive with the Tube for that journey, although there may be some value for the area east of CW.

There already is a Thames Clipper service from Canary Wharf to North Greenwich, it has 3 boats per hour.

 

[edwin_m]

There already is a Thames Clipper service from Canary Wharf to North Greenwich, it has 3 boats per hour.

Only from the western end of Canary Wharf I think, which would be much slower than walking to the Tube. I believe this proposal was for a much shorter ferry from somewhere in the north-eastern part of the Isle of Dogs.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I'm a little concerned about the scope of the DLR extension. If it just runs to Thamesmead, then Abbey Wood may well be close by but it's not likely to be a direct connection. Anyone wanting to change for Southeastern or Crossrail will need to make their way there via the roads, which are already congested in that area.

Presumably for Crossrail, people will get the DLR to Excel and change to Crossrail there. I guess that if the DLR ran to Abbey Wood then changing there would be quicker, but going to Excel should still be manageable if you're heading for central London. The DLR will also be OK for getting from Thamesmead to Stratford, Canary Wharf, North Greenwich or Excel itself. I would imagine the main loss from not running the DLR through to Abbey Wood would be that you won't be able to easily get from Thamesmead to Woolwich. I would assume that would represent quite a significant passenger flow.

I think it is regrettable that Sadiq hasn't proposed running the DLR to Abbey Wood. TfL's consultation report earlier this year indicated that doing that would be expensive because it would probably need to be in a tunnel between Thamesmead and Abbey Wood. So I suspect cost may be the reason for the decision - since the proposals he's already announced are going to be very expensive to build.

Having said that, he is looking into extending the GOBLIN to Abbey Wood, which hopefully would connect with the DLR at Thamesmead. I do wonder whether, when TfL look into it, it'll turn out to be more cost effective (and benefit more people) to take the DLR there instead.

 

[notverydeep]

Some will no doubt point out that the Dartford fleet was withdrawn and scrapped quickly due to lack of use. But that was a relatively remote service. With the general surge in cycling in central London and this service being very much within populated areas there's more chance of success.

The Dartford buses were weird things- the entire lower level was for bikes, with special loading docks giving level access to both sides and a set of steep steps starting at platform level on both sides to the upper passenger deck

One survives according to this website: http://www.countrybus.org/TT/TT.htm, TT4 apparently saved - though still awaiting restoration, by someone not without influence on the matter of provision of road public transport in the general area...

 

[Busaholic]

The Blackwall and Silvertown tunnels will have their southern entrances in almost the same place, so tolling only one of them would be unworkable - it would result in massive queues on the free tunnel, and very little traffic in the tolled one!

The point of tolling is partly to pay for building the crossing, and partly to try to deter traffic from using it - to offset the increase in traffic that would otherwise be caused by the new crossing. Many of the roads around the Southern entrance to the Blackwall tunnel are already at capacity and frequently get very congested as it is. If the crossing was built without tolls, the resultant increase in traffic would probably cause chaos and gridlock in large parts of Greenwich and Charlton.

I do think that failing to toll Rotherhithe is going to prove a mistake - since that will cause an increase in traffic levels around that tunnel as some people try to avoid the tolls. Much of London is already choking under the pressure of too many journeys being made by private car, and there's a desperate need to discourage people from driving if they don't have to. Tolling does provide one partial solution to that - with a double benefit if the funds raised go to TfL and can therefore be used to invest in transport.

The M6 Toll Road exists alongside the M6, but has, I think, 90% plus less traffic on it!

The Congestion Charge area should be expanded - not just Kensington and Chelsea, whose removal was a blatant political one, but further in every direction. Maybe include Rotherhithe and Blackwall, but not Silvertown, and keep the old tunnels toll-free. The traffic would sort itself out then!

 

[CNash]

Having said that, he is looking into extending the GOBLIN to Abbey Wood, which hopefully would connect with the DLR at Thamesmead. I do wonder whether, when TfL look into it, it'll turn out to be more cost effective (and benefit more people) to take the DLR there instead.

I think a lot of people would favour the direct link through from Bexley to Barking, though, instead of it becoming just another spur of the DLR network. There's a lot of redevelopment happening along the riverside on both banks, and having to trundle along the Beckton branch, go to West Ham and use the District Line has been cumbersome and inadequate for a long while.