New Street partitioning

[wildcard]

I notice New Street sports a partition down the centre of platforms 4 & 5 ( I think - can't remember exactly ! ) - effectively dividing it into two separate platforms so you would have to go back up to the concourse to interchange. It looks solid enough to be permanent . What is the thinking behind this . Is it for some pending building works , a revenue protection idea to separate intercity and metro services or some other reason ?

 

[jfollows]

I notice New Street sports a partition down the centre of platforms 4 & 5 ( I think - can't remember exactly ! ) - effectively dividing it into two separate platforms so you would have to go back up to the concourse to interchange. It looks solid enough to be permanent . What is the thinking behind this . Is it for some pending building works , a revenue protection idea to separate intercity and metro services or some other reason ?

Temporary - platforms 5 & 6 are temporarily out of use as part of a rolling programme of closures across the station. It's discussed in a separate thread which I'll link to if I can find it.
EDIT https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rain-per-hour-from-april.245864/#post-6140905

Bits of concrete are falling off (spalling) at New St, hence taking out a couple of platforms at a time to deal with it.

Current blocks shown at https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/bhm

 

[Mikey C]

Bits of concrete falling off deserves its own thread, rather than being buried in the timetable subsection!

It does beg the question about how this could be an issue after the lengthy and expensive rebuild above.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Bits of concrete falling off deserves its own thread, rather than being buried in the timetable subsection!

It does beg the question about how this could be an issue after the lengthy and expensive rebuild above.

Simply put, when the works were done on the platforms, they didn't do any works on the concrete structure over the tracks (to my knowledge).
If there were signs of requiring remedial works at the time they no doubt would have done so.

Platforms will be OOU 2 at a time, for around a month per pair until all works are finished.

 

[Russel]

Bits of concrete falling off deserves its own thread, rather than being buried in the timetable subsection!

It does beg the question about how this could be an issue after the lengthy and expensive rebuild above.

As I said in the thread in the timetabling subforum, the whole station is made of 1960s concrete, so what sort of condition is the rest of the structure in?

 

[occone]

It does seem surprising to see structural work so soon after a major renovation.

That said, the New Street revamp was largely about building a shopping centre and bringing a sense of local pride to the area, rather than making the station work better for passengers.

While the concourses are much smarter with their grey stone and wavy ceilings, it's clear they didn't focus on the actual bit involving trains. It's just as polluted, dark, and cramped down there as ever. If anything they made the A concourse harder to use, having to scan out and in again in order to change between certain services.

 

[Mikey C]

It does seem surprising to see structural work so soon after a major renovation.

That said, the New Street revamp was largely about building a shopping centre and bringing a sense of local pride to the area, rather than making the station work better for passengers.

While the concourses are much smarter with their grey stone and wavy ceilings, it's clear they didn't focus on the actual bit involving trains. It's just as polluted, dark, and cramped down there as ever. If anything they made the A concourse harder to use, having to scan out and in again in order to change between certain services.

Agreed. Bizarre that they spent a fortune on the flashy building on top, but did nothing to the concrete deck and platforms at the same time

Changes for passengers during Birmingham New Street platform work

Passengers are being advised about changes to journeys through Birmingham New Street station while engineers carry out improvements to the concrete roof above the station’s 12 platforms.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Passengers are being advised about changes to journeys through Birmingham New Street station while engineers carry out improvements to the concrete roof above the station’s 12 platforms.

An investment of £7.5m will upgrade the original 1960s concrete deck which supports the station concourse. The vital maintenance will keep trains running safely and reliably in future.

 

[Russel]

It does seem surprising to see structural work so soon after a major renovation.

That said, the New Street revamp was largely about building a shopping centre and bringing a sense of local pride to the area, rather than making the station work better for passengers.

While the concourses are much smarter with their grey stone and wavy ceilings, it's clear they didn't focus on the actual bit involving trains. It's just as polluted, dark, and cramped down there as ever. If anything they made the A concourse harder to use, having to scan out and in again in order to change between certain services.

What could realistically be done at platform level though?

Unless we're willing to accept years of disruption to both the rail network and to Birmingham city centre, while the station and surrounding areas are flattened and rebuilt from the ground up, we're stuck with what we have.

That said, the Proof House and Curzon Street area would make an ideal spot for a replacement New Street...

 

[tomuk]

It does seem surprising to see structural work so soon after a major renovation.

That said, the New Street revamp was largely about building a shopping centre and bringing a sense of local pride to the area, rather than making the station work better for passengers.

While the concourses are much smarter with their grey stone and wavy ceilings, it's clear they didn't focus on the actual bit involving trains. It's just as polluted, dark, and cramped down there as ever. If anything they made the A concourse harder to use, having to scan out and in again in order to change between certain services.

They did do work at platform level all the waiting rooms were removed and the ramps down to the subway were filled in making more room on the platforms and all the platforms were refurbished.

“We got rid of all the clutter and rationalised the platforms, removing waiting rooms, smoke lobbies and the former post office ramps. A comprehensive refurbishment was also carried out – with an enhanced smoke and fume extract system installed,” says Stitchman.

It was below ground that Mace’s planning had to be most accurate, as platform closures needed to be booked 18 months in advance. To allow the station to operate at full capacity, Mace tackled one platform at a time, with trains using the “closed” track to remove waste and to deliver materials. To increase efficiency while not being used, this train was parked at the platform so that the wagons created a safety barrier.

 

[edwin_m]

To allow the station to operate at full capacity, Mace tackled one platform at a time, with trains using the “closed” track to remove waste and to deliver materials. To increase efficiency while not being used, this train was parked at the platform so that the wagons created a safety barrier.

Not sure why they can't do that this time - closing two platforms leads to services being cancelled.

 

[Falcon1200]

What could realistically be done at platform level though?

Better, or rather more, lighting perhaps? I always find platform level gloomy because the areas above the tracks are unlit, while not necessary for passengers addressing that would IMHO improve the overall ambience.

 

[edwin_m]

Better, or rather more, lighting perhaps? I always find platform level gloomy because the areas above the tracks are unlit, while not necessary for passengers addressing that would IMHO improve the overall ambience.

That would have to be done very carefully to avoid dazzling drivers. And it might just highlight how filthy it probably is up there (and impossible to clean without closing tracks).

 

[Efini92]

As I said in the thread in the timetabling subforum, the whole station is made of 1960s concrete, so what sort of condition is the rest of the structure in?

Probably the same condition as Hammersmith flyover.
How do they replace it all?

 

[The Planner]

Probably the same condition as Hammersmith flyover.
How do they replace it all?

That's a pretty big assumption!

 

[Mikey C]

Probably the same condition as Hammersmith flyover.
How do they replace it all?

Flyovers, with their expose to rain and salt from the road have a much tougher time though.

 

[Efini92]

That's a pretty big assumption!

I suppose it is, but if you look at most of the concrete structures from the 60’s the metal inserts are rotten.

Flyovers, with their expose to rain and salt from the road have a much tougher time though.

True but the walls of the station in parts are quite damp.

 

[The Planner]

I suppose it is, but if you look at most of the concrete structures from the 60’s the metal inserts are rotten.


True but the walls of the station in parts are quite damp.

I would expect some sort of structural integrity investigations took place considering the change in loadings as part of the new complex built above.

 

[Fidelis]

Not sure why they can't do that this time - closing two platforms leads to services being cancelled.

Checking the structure yesterday, albeit from platforms, there is visible spalling over the tracks. Surely it is better to depower the OLE over the two adjacent lines and ensure that work can be carried out safely .
As a frequent user of New Street the platforms are much brighter than before and am unsure if lighting over the tracks would help passengers as it would highlight the carbon deposited by Diesel traction.

 

[edwin_m]

Checking the structure yesterday, albeit from platforms, there is visible spalling over the tracks. Surely it is better to depower the OLE over the two adjacent lines and ensure that work can be carried out safely .
As a frequent user of New Street the platforms are much brighter than before and am unsure if lighting over the tracks would help passengers as it would highlight the carbon deposited by Diesel traction.

Yes, that is a valid reason to have to close two platforms at the same time.

 

[occone]

Better, or rather more, lighting perhaps? I always find platform level gloomy because the areas above the tracks are unlit, while not necessary for passengers addressing that would IMHO improve the overall ambience.

Absolutely agree.

I also think they really could have prioritised fume extraction - while they have some fans in place they seem to generate more noise than providing fresh air. It would scupper the fancy shopping centre, but some ventilation shafts to the outside would help. The daylight wouldn't hurt either. But the priority was to build a shopping centre and hide away the trains, alas.

It only takes a couple of voyagers to fumigate the platforms - you can hear the fans starting to spin up but by the time they have done that I'm already choking from the smell.

Additionally they could have (maybe still could?) looked at imposing better crowd management systems. For example, stacks of people piling off trains while stacks more try and push on at the same time for a through train. Queuing systems up top to allow time for alighting passengers to make their way to the escalators before admitting boarding passengers would make the whole process more pleasant and civil.

Finally, not requiring people to have to scan out of the barriers then scan in again to change between some platforms on the A end would also help a huge deal. It's a really clunky experience having to know to go to the B end, or have to be let out and let in again as the barriers regularly reject my through tickets, necessitating me taking up the time of a member of staff.

It's not an *awful* station - but given the somewhat recent refurb there's a fair bit of valid criticism, especially for the issues introduced by the refurb.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Additionally they could have (maybe still could?) looked at imposing better crowd management systems. For example, stacks of people piling off trains while stacks more try and push on at the same time for a through train. Queuing systems up top to allow time for alighting passengers to make their way to the escalators before admitting boarding passengers would make the whole process more pleasant and civil.

With many trains only stopping for a few minutes it's just not viable. It's a bit Manchester Picc 13/14 in a way but not as bad.

Finally, not requiring people to have to scan out of the barriers then scan in again to change between some platforms on the A end would also help a huge deal. It's a really clunky experience having to know to go to the B end, or have to be let out and let in again as the barriers regularly reject my through tickets, necessitating me taking up the time of a member of staff.

There's no way to avoid this without one of:

1. Losing the busiest (Bullring) entrance/exit
2. Only having B end access
3. Having another floor for circulation and losing the bright, airy atrium as a result
4. Having a footbridge between the two halves of the A end

All of those are worse than how it is. To change trains, just head for the B end. It's signed, though more prominent signage may help.

It's not an *awful* station - but given the somewhat recent refurb there's a fair bit of valid criticism, especially for the issues introduced by the refurb.

It's vastly better than it was. I quite like it despite its flaws.

As for the fumes, the best way to fix that is to get rid of the Voyagers entirely

 

[occone]

As for the fumes, the best way to fix that is to get rid of the Voyagers entirely

It's always good to find common ground

 

[Pigeon]

That said, the Proof House and Curzon Street area would make an ideal spot for a replacement New Street...

New Street was built because the Curzon Street area was a really crappy place to put a station. It still is. It's a horrible trek, despite the bizarre attempts to make out that it isn't by people who obviously haven't walked it themselves.

My ideas for what to do about New Street start with the observation that it's on sandstone, but probably ought not to go in this thread.

 

[tomuk]

New Street was built because the Curzon Street area was a really crappy place to put a station. It still is. It's a horrible trek, despite the bizarre attempts to make out that it isn't by people who obviously haven't walked it themselves.

My ideas for what to do about New Street start with the observation that it's on sandstone, but probably ought not to go in this thread.

The new HS2 station will be on Moor Street. As it has to handle 400m long trains it will stretch out past the old Curzon St station.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

The new HS2 station will be on Moor Street. As it has to handle 400m long trains it will stretch out past the old Curzon St station.

Exactly, and with the huge redevelopment already well underway on that side of the city, a great location for it.

 

[Russel]

New Street was built because the Curzon Street area was a really crappy place to put a station. It still is. It's a horrible trek, despite the bizarre attempts to make out that it isn't by people who obviously haven't walked it themselves.

This may have been true 15 years ago, but now the whole Eastside area has been absorbed into the city centre, the Curzon Street area is only a stones throw from Moor Street Queensway and Priory Queensway which are two of the main bus interchange areas in the city.

New Street to Curzon Street are a similar distance apart as New Street and Snow Hill.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

New Street to Curzon Street are a similar distance apart as New Street and Snow Hill.

That's only the case if the entrance is off Moor St Queensway - I think the entrance will be slightly further down the hill just after the hotel entrance.

Anyway, back OT, will be interesting to see if there is any visible difference once P5&6 reopen. Not really sure what they are doing, we were just told 'works on the concrete above the tracks'.

 

[edwin_m]

That's only the case if the entrance is off Moor St Queensway - I think the entrance will be slightly further down the hill just after the hotel entrance.

I believe there will be entrances is both places. Off down the hill is roughly where a replacement New Street would have to be if it was agreed to re-locate it to this area (due to the length required for a station throat after coming out of the tunnel and passing under Moor Street).

 

[swt_passenger]

The new HS2 station will be on Moor Street. As it has to handle 400m long trains it will stretch out past the old Curzon St station.

Yes, and calling it Curzon St has always seemed to me to be a spectacular own goal. Presumably playing to the small minority who think everything old is good and must be reopened at all costs.

 

[Parjon]

Rather ironic/par for the HS2 course that the only location in the UK likely to see 400m trains to London currently has a thread on this forum bemoaning the current irregularity of services, such is the downturn in demand.

Perhaps when it opens they can run one train a day.

I seem to recall at the time New Street was redeveloped there were those making objection that it did nothing to improve the operational capabilities of the station itself. I wonder what the long term life span is of the building underneath the redevelopment.