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New Street 10mph limit

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LesF

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Does anyone know why New St station has a 10mph limit and what it would take to increase it?
Would a higher limit ease the congestion? The station is never full of trains, the problem is trains waiting outside the station for access.
Would a revised track layout in the throats help in conjunction with the forthcoming resignalling?
 
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HarleyDavidson

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I'd have thought it was down to the signal sections in there. You can fit at least two, if not three trains in a single platform, unless they've changed the system since I was last there 12 months ago.
 

swt_passenger

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Isn't it because the entire layout is substandard against current signalling rules, primarily in terms of very reduced overlaps beyond platform stop signals, so even when running into a full length clear platform all movements have to be at low speed.

IIRC someone posted before that re-signalling could only make things worse, unless massive dispensations against standards were again allowed. There's no space for significant changes to track layouts.
 

MarkyT

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The junction layouts at each end are very tight and constrained with little opportunity to ease them without either impossibly expensive widening of the cutting or shortening or even abandonment of some of the platforms. Platform widths and positions and curvature across the layout cannot change easily either due to positions of columns supporting the buildings above. Signal spacing is very short with the mid platform signals, but is not substandard. The spacing is correct for the permitted speed, by engineering standards of the past and today. Entry signals are cleared under a modern equivalent of 'warning acceptance' when the far end of the platform beyond the mid platform signal is occupied by another train. Under modern TCB, a warning route only clears when the train has been brought under control approaching the authorising signal at red. A warning route normally has a shorter 'restricted' overlap (typically 50m) proved clear beyond the destination signal, but there are provisions in standards to omit this where speed is low and risk is assessed to be low, as must have been justified at New Street when the current signalling was designed. Whllst interlocking controls are unlikely to be significantly non-compliant, signal positioning and sighting may not all be optimum by modern understanding. Realistically, however, when the layout gets resignalled at some point, the signal positions are highly constrained by the track layout and standage required in the platfroms, so the only way to improve sighting (if it was considered substandard in any specific case) might be to provide additional co-acting signal heads (for short range viewing) and banner repeaters (for longer range approach viewing).
 

DarloRich

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Does anyone know why New St station has a 10mph limit and what it would take to increase it?
Would a higher limit ease the congestion? The station is never full of trains, the problem is trains waiting outside the station for access.
Would a revised track layout in the throats help in conjunction with the forthcoming resignalling?

not sure how you could do that within the constraints of the urban cutting and tunnel arrangement we see at Birmingham New Street
 

The Planner

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New St doesnt have overlaps at all on the platform starters or intermediates. The resignalling is pretty much nailed down as is just like for like. Nothing is getting changed infrastructure wise. Dec 18 is when the station core is done. There was talk of increasing the exit speed but I dont think that is going anywhere.
 

Bill EWS

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Birmingham does have it's own signalling system that applies only to that area. They even have signals that lay sidewise, rather than vertical as is the norm. Or at least they did have, things may have changes since I retired nearly ten yeas ago now. All the turn outs are very short and sharp.
 

MarkyT

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New St doesnt have overlaps at all on the platform starters or intermediates.

No overlaps and no AWS.

This Simsig numbering plan (usually pretty accurate) confirms that:
Code:
[URL]http://www.simsig.co.uk/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=usertrack:sims:new_street:new-street-2001_-signal-number-plan-pdf.pdf[/URL]

In these diagrams overlaps are indicated by a 'T' shape at the end of the appropriate track section. Whilst these are shown extensively elsewhere throughout the control area, none are found in New Street station except for the Home signals on approach.

I also found this image of part of the actual control panel face:
http://s219.photobucket.com/user/keithjn/media/London%20Midland/KW2007xxxx020BirminghamNewStpanel.jpg.html

In these diagrams, an overlap is indicated by a small white dot in the black separators between the variously coloured track circuit sections. Again there are none shown in the area illustrated.
 
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IanXC

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Initially looking at this photo I wondered what 9014 referred to, until I remembered that in the virgin crosscountry era, they used 9 as the initial digit on the describer, and it is in fact 9O14

9 is currently used by Virgin Trains for services via the West Midlands, with Trent Valley services operating in 1 Headcodes.
 

Jonny

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Would a mixture of flank protection and overlap sidings enable an increase in speed at Birmingham New Street?
 

JN114

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Would a mixture of flank protection and overlap sidings enable an increase in speed at Birmingham New Street?

Potentially, but the costs both monetarily and in terms of operational flexibility (the current timetable relies on New Street signalling being sub-standard) far outweigh the benefits.
 
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