New Stock for Northern?

[northwichcat]

Over the past 12 months I've ridden on Northern, Merseyrail and ATWs with all the variety of seating configurations and styles. I used to use them for short trips (Swinton - Salford Crescent) and long trips Preston - Salford Crescent (right after getting off a Pullman) but my longest was Sheffield - Manchester Piccadilly in a Northern with 3-2 bus seat config. It was long as hell (all those stops) but I enjoyed it, found it reasonably comfortable and a hell of a lot better experiance had I not waited the extra 10 minutes and got on the fTPE 185 which as usual is way overcrowded and has those naff seats which are just as bad as the bus seats.

Preston-Salford Crescent isn't a long journey. Many people commute in to Manchester and other cities every day for an hour on a Pacer.

The Sheffield-Manchester expresses leaving Sheffield at peak times aren't overcrowded from my experience, unless it's a 2 car unit. I've caught them a few times and never not got a seat.

One of the lines 142s were always intended for is the Penistone Line. This 1.25 hour stopping journey is the only direct service between Huddersfield and Sheffield. You do have the option of changing at Leeds but at peak times you might find you're unable to board a train at Leeds because it's so packed.

Pacers are good at the jobs they were designed for, in some cases they are even managing fine on jobs they were not designed for but they struggle and get the bad reputation for being used on heavy runs for which they can not cope.

They are ideal for the Manchester - Atherton - Wigan run during the day but during rush hour they are far from suitable and yet it is the same train with the same service on the same line.

Which lines would you put Pacers on at peak times then?

Out of interest (not necessarily for Phil6219 to respond to) which lines see Pacers now that didn't around 1990?

Southport-Manchester Piccadilly and Chester-Manchester via Altrincham were almost exclusively 150s at around that time. I also doubt Hazel Grove-Manchester would have seen Pacers.
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Would love to see how a 4 car would perform on a Liverpool-Norwich!

4 car Inter Urban version has 282 seats - less than the 4 car 158s on some Liverpool-Norwich services now, which can get very busy at peak times and on Saturdays. I think by the time new trains are ordered for Liverpool-Norwich it would need to be 5 or even 6 cars on busiest services.

 

[asylumxl]

With reference to seat numbers, it's worth remembering that most modern trains are now built with more standing space, so seat numbers do not tell the whole story.

 

[northwichcat]

With reference to seat numbers, it's worth remembering that most modern trains are now built with more standing space, so seat numbers do not tell the whole story.

EMT were requested specifically to refurbish to 158s for Liverpool-Norwich to introduce more seats due to overcrowding, so replacing those 158s with DMUs that have around the same number of seats as the original 158 layout would be a step backwards.

 

[Phil6219]

Ok I stand corrected, however I would have considered Sheffield - Manchester a much longer route than designed for.

As for routes not frequented by Pacers in the 1990's I reckon that Carlisle - Middlesborough stands out as one. Even BR wouldn't expect people to spend 2.30 hours on a Pacer...

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It does seem a poor-looking comparison on the platforms at Southport station when you see the long-in-service Pacers and Merseyrail Electrics ( which seem far more acceptable looking and modern), even though both stocks have had many years service behind them these days.

I have heard some very disparaging comments about the Pacers there from people with a "Scouse" accent, stating they were lucky not to have them on their coastal line.

 

[EWS 58038]

I would imagine its because they are large offices and is just a coincidence!

Loads of rail comapnies used to share the old HQ building at York and there wa snothing sinister with that!

Do a Google streetview search and you'll be amazed. Did it never occured to you that Ian Yoghurt and CSRE were together as well when he was still at Grand Central.... And what trains were GC to use in five toseven years... Ah

When Ian was at GC they were going for the Polaris sets as well. Over the years the playing feels has shifted a bit, and Ian now wants his own Yoghurt rail... And guess what 125mph stock he has in mind?

Alliance aka Yoghurt Rail is not only a TOC, but a forming ROSCO as well and is european partner for CSRE. Imagine what will happen when the Polaris sets proves to be a giant hit... Many TOC's all across europe an dthe UK might want a few of them. (Adelante replacement)

 

[159220]

I'm sorry, but I can't help but think that post makes you sound bigoted. You have brought up the usual stereotypes of China and it's products. Fact is the majority of electronics and machines you use daily are going to be of Chinese origin, irrelevant of where they were assembled, and work perfectly.

Before i respond to your ridiculous accusation may i ask have you ever travelled for more than a month through the extensive and diverse space that China is? Not just the main cities but the vast geographical space of the country as a whole? Engaged with 56 ethnic groups of China? Asked questions and investigated the true cause behind projects and governmental control out there?

Please let me know then i shall know how to address you.

For the record, my lady is Mexican/Italian/German/English. My bestfriend is Iranian and my 2nd Bestfriend is Columbian. I am orginally am immigrant myself coming from Jersey.

So please can you clear up your experience of China before i address your ridiculous nonsence.

If you have never been, never used there rail network extensively, I shall decline to reply.

 

[asylumxl]

I have not been, and I do feel in hindsight my original post may have been a bit harsh, and I apologise for calling you a bigot.

But I do feel your post was reinforcing stereotypes, which are not necessarily true. How is blanketing one group besed on your experiences with another no less than stereotyping?

As some forums members will know, I myself am of mixed heritage and have friends from a diverse range of cultures.

Just because of this, it does not mean you or I cannot be prejudice. I think we should withold our views on the CSRE products until we have examples to go by.

 

[tbtc]

Most of the criticism seems to be aimed at the 142s. Are the 143/144s better built or just generally favoured because they have been given a thorough refurbishment?

Thats a fair question.

I think the criticism of the 142s (specifically) is because:

1. They are a bigger class
2. They are spread between three TOCs and much of the country (from Northumberland to Devon), so have more of a "spread" than a lot of trains
3. The 3+2 seats, esp on the Merseyrail versions
4. Some of the 144s have a third coach - it still only gives them the capacity of a normal two coach Sprinter, but it does make a difference
5. The WYPTE refurb on 144s means they are probably the nicest Pacers to travel on (all things being relative!)
6. 142s do run longer distance services on "main" lines, whilst the 143s tend to stick to "branches", so the poor quality of a 142 is more noticeable when its on a line you might expect something like a 156 on

I can't comment on 143s as I've only ridden the ATW versions (a few years ago now), but you do raise an interesting point

 

[Lampshade]

Most of the criticism seems to be aimed at the 142s. Are the 143/144s better built or just generally favoured because they have been given a thorough refurbishment? I guess we should be grateful we don't still have 141s running around West Yorkshire, although had the increase in passenger numbers been foreseen in 1997 they may well have been retained.

I can only comment on 144s but they have much better seats, a marginally better ride, wider 2+2 seating as opposed to 3+2 which creates a more pleasant environment on board, a more train-like appearance, better door controls and a third carriage in some cases.

Couple all that to the fact that 144s are used on lines where they were originally intended for and not on main arterial routes and 144s don't seem all that bad. However, due to Northern's infatuation with Leeds, people in Manchester and Newcastle have little choice but to endure 142s on very long journeys, so a worse train used on routes they weren't designed for, it becomes fairly obvious why 142s are hated so much.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought I'd try and answer the point raised in the first post.

It looks like Maria Eagle asked the wrong question:

"To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which companies have been shortlisted to provide additional rolling stock for the Northern Rail passenger rail franchise; and when he expects to announce the award of the contract."

Obviously no companies would have been shortlisted, because the LM 150s up for discussion were cascades and all owned by the same ROSCO, so the question of shortlisting companies isn't relevant.

If OTOH there had been so many 150s off lease that Northern's requirement could have been met by various different Roscos, then her question would have been quite reasonable.

Much ado about nothing then...

 

[WatcherZero]

I actually prefer the refurbed 144's to some Sprinter models.

 

[Inox]

Was on the 15.03 from Salford Central > Clitheroe today. the service is usually a two car set, but not today. This time it was augmented with ex London Midland's 153366.

 

[junglejames]

But I do feel your post was reinforcing stereotypes, which are not necessarily true. How is blanketing one group besed on your experiences with another no less than stereotyping

But what he is trying to tell you, and which is plainly obvious just by living, is that he isnt reinvorcing untrue stereotypes. He is telling it as it is.
Poor quality products, and a repressive government. No decent health and safety, and no appreciation for human welfare and life.

Just because of this, it does not mean you or I cannot be prejudice. I think we should withold our views on the CSRE products until we have examples to go by.

But why should we? All the evidence so far points to the fact we should not be touching this stuff.
Its bad enough as it is that all these private companies are happy to get their products made in china. For our government to now place a train building contract with china would be taking the biscuit.
We cannot be seen to be supporting such a repressive government which has such small regard for health and safety.
So, it will be a vry long time, if ever, before we get to experience CSRE products. So whilst it would be unfair to say anything about CSRE itself, we can be happy in what we are saying, based on experience of china and other chinese products.
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Relatively comfortable....compared to what :roll:

May I enquire which route you use these Pacer units on and which of the three TOC variation stock is used. It it the one with 3 + 2 seating?

You ask "Whats the problem!". There have been literally hundreds of thread postings on this forum over numerous threads that have answered your particular question.

Compared to what? Do you really want the list?
Ok. Pendys, voyagers, Desiros, Javelins. Compared to these, well at times they are just fine. The seats have padding, unlike the other trains mentioned. I have used them with Northern and FGW. Ive had 3+2 and also 2+2 i do believe.
The ones still wioth the bus seats are just brilliant. My backside is quite happy. It isnt on the other trains mentioned.
As i mentioned a while ago, for short journeys they are fine, and preferable to any other stock mentioned. For long journeys they are not very suitable, but i wouldnt want to use any of the other stock mentioned on long journeys either. Ive done 90mins on a voyager and have been begging to get off. Ive done the whole Cumbrian Coast line on a pacer (Carlisle to Lancaster), and despite my reservations about it before i got on, I never had a problem at all.

You obviously missed my laughing at the end of my post. ie it was meant partly as a joke.
I do know of the problems with pacers, but i also know they are just fine for certain runs.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You obviously missed my laughing at the end of my post. ie it was meant partly as a joke.

I do know of the problems with Pacers, but i also know they are just fine for certain runs.

No problem, we all have our own opinions and a bit of humour can diffuse any situation that looks like getting a bit "heated".

 

[northwichcat]

I thought I'd try and answer the point raised in the first post.

It looks like Maria Eagle asked the wrong question:

"To ask the Secretary of State for Transport which companies have been shortlisted to provide additional rolling stock for the Northern Rail passenger rail franchise; and when he expects to announce the award of the contract."

Obviously no companies would have been shortlisted, because the LM 150s up for discussion were cascades and all owned by the same ROSCO, so the question of shortlisting companies isn't relevant.

If OTOH there had been so many 150s off lease that Northern's requirement could have been met by various different Roscos, then her question would have been quite reasonable.

Much ado about nothing then...

She's probably been looking at old documents.

In 2008 it was identified that by 2014 Northern would need an extra 182 carriages, FGW would need an extra 52 carriages, TransPennine Express would need an extra 42 carriages and that London Midland would need an extra 92 carriages.

To achieve this the plan was:
1. 200 brand new diesel carriages with about 75% of those intended for Northern.
2. The LM and LO Class 150 cascades
3. A new fleet of EMUs for Northern for extra capacity and 321 and 323 replacement with those EMUs going to LM for additional capacity.

Number 1 was replaced by electrification program and the Thameslink cascade. Number 2 is still going ahead. Number 3 went all quiet - it wasn't officially cancelled but it's not progressed.

Maybe it was number 3 that she was getting at.

 

[swt_passenger]

She's probably been looking at old documents.

Maybe it was number 3 that she was getting at.

She's still asking the wrong person then - the plan you listed, (that I was aware of) was that of the last government. It should all have been happening well before Villiers took over, so presumably Adonis knows the answer...

 

[northwichcat]

She's still asking the wrong person then - the plan you listed, (that I was aware of) was that of the last government. It should all have been happening well before Villiers took over, so presumably Adonis knows the answer...

Adonis should have known what the answer was. However, if he said that at the last general election the plan had been delayed not cancelled then it would be up to the new government to say whether they want it to go ahead.

Maria Eagle is Shadow Secretary of State for Transport, so she should know which plans were still due to go ahead under Labour without needing to ask the question in parliament. However, I accept her question should have been less generic.

 

[175001]

Was on the 15.03 from Salford Central > Clitheroe today. the service is usually a two car set, but not today. This time it was augmented with ex London Midland's 153366.

The 1500 Man Vic-Citheroe is always booked for a 150/156 and a 153.

 

[Kneedown]

4 car Inter Urban version has 282 seats - less than the 4 car 158s on some Liverpool-Norwich services now, which can get very busy at peak times and on Saturdays. I think by the time new trains are ordered for Liverpool-Norwich it would need to be 5 or even 6 cars on busiest services.

Quite true, but capacity is not just about seats, luggage space is a big part too, and a good proportion of the passengers on this route have a fair amount of luggage with them and not much space to put it at present. The extra seating since 158 refurbishment seems to be used for bags, suitcases etc. I do, however, confess to not thinking too far ahead into the future and so i accept your point about a 5 car version being more suitable. 6 would be good but then there would possibly be issues with platform capacity.

 

[tbtc]

Quite true, but capacity is not just about seats, luggage space is a big part too, and a good proportion of the passengers on this route have a fair amount of luggage with them and not much space to put it at present. The extra seating since 158 refurbishment seems to be used for bags, suitcases etc. I do, however, confess to not thinking too far ahead into the future and so i accept your point about a 5 car version being more suitable. 6 would be good but then there would possibly be issues with platform capacity.

Interesting point. I'm not sure why EMT's Liverpool - Norwich services always tend to use a "main" platform at Sheffield and not one of the southern bays (some hours only used by the Hope Valley Pacer, which isn't very frequent...), never understood that.

 

[northwichcat]

The extra seating since 158 refurbishment seems to be used for bags, suitcases etc.

I've found since the new seats have been put in that it's easier to fit a bag (Airport hand luggage type size) under your seat.

I do, however, confess to not thinking too far ahead into the future and so i accept your point about a 5 car version being more suitable. 6 would be good but then there would possibly be issues with platform capacity.

They've used 7 car Meridians on the Nottingham-Liverpool section but they are longer than the platforms at stations like Liverpool South Parkway, so I'm not sure exactly what they did there - presumably kept some doors locked and instructed passengers where to alight.

 

[Lampshade]

They've used 7 car Meridians on the Nottingham-Liverpool section but they are longer than the platforms at stations like Liverpool South Parkway, so I'm not sure exactly what they did there - presumably kept some doors locked and instructed passengers where to alight.

222s have SDO.

 

[Kneedown]

Interesting point. I'm not sure why EMT's Liverpool - Norwich services always tend to use a "main" platform at Sheffield and not one of the southern bays (some hours only used by the Hope Valley Pacer, which isn't very frequent...), never understood that.

Probably goes back to Central days when 170's were barred from using platform 2c.
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They've used 7 car Meridians on the Nottingham-Liverpool section but they are longer than the platforms at stations like Liverpool South Parkway, so I'm not sure exactly what they did there - presumably kept some doors locked and instructed passengers where to alight.

I worked one earlier this year on Grand National day (Claim to fame:- made the first ever Meridian stop at Irlam and Birchwood! ) and indeed the SDO was used. It's a good system but i don't personally think it's wise to use it all the time. You invariably get people in the wrong portion of the train who have to hurry through to the right section.