New stations between Preston-Lancaster?

[Agent_Squash]

It may just be the new regular commute on the Stagecoach buses to the university, but over the last few weeks I can't help but think the railway is missing a good revenue opportunities with the lack of stops on the WCML between Preston and Lancaster.

Building a 'Lancaster University Parkway' in the Oubeck goods loop has the potential to be a major public transport interchange. Being right outside the front entrance to the university, the constant stream of buses between the city and university could be easily diverted - while in terms of a rail service, at least stopping the 1tph Northern would be a minimal-disruption option that vastly improves productivity. Whilst the bus service is very good, it struggles to deal with the peak demand at times - an area where rail would shine!

It would also be great to see a new station near Garstang, which would also be a big boon for local connectivity (where it currently takes 45 minutes to get to Preston, and 1 hour to Lancaster). It would probably be similar to Oxenholme and need a local bus service as the WCML is next to the M6 at this point. Again could start with the Northern service as a stop.

It would be good to know if this is technically possible in the WCML timetable...

 

[30907]

When did we last have a thread on this?

Where is the significant flow to the Uni from? Would it be efficiently catered for by an hourly Northern medium distance service?
Or would a Morecambe-Oubeck Up Loop shuttle (needing an extra unit and a signalled crossover, and possibly awkward to path through the Down at Lancaster) actually be more use - if not more economical!

Garstang is a different situation anyway, with the old station site well away from the town and no obvious better option.

 

[The Planner]

It may just be the new regular commute on the Stagecoach buses to the university, but over the last few weeks I can't help but think the railway is missing a good revenue opportunities with the lack of stops on the WCML between Preston and Lancaster.

Building a 'Lancaster University Parkway' in the Oubeck goods loop has the potential to be a major public transport interchange. Being right outside the front entrance to the university, the constant stream of buses between the city and university could be easily diverted - while in terms of a rail service, at least stopping the 1tph Northern would be a minimal-disruption option that vastly improves productivity. Whilst the bus service is very good, it struggles to deal with the peak demand at times - an area where rail would shine!

It would also be great to see a new station near Garstang, which would also be a big boon for local connectivity (where it currently takes 45 minutes to get to Preston, and 1 hour to Lancaster). It would probably be similar to Oxenholme and need a local bus service as the WCML is next to the M6 at this point. Again could start with the Northern service as a stop.

It would be good to know if this is technically possible in the current WCML timetable...

What trains would you be expecting to take the stops? Avanti wouldn't want to know so you are stuck with Northern. You couldn't put the stops in the Airport Windermere/Barrow as an Avanti is right behind you in both directions. You might get one stop in a TPE. I have only looked at a very constrained area so not end to end, so no idea about knock on nearer Manchester and further north.

 

[Agent_Squash]

When did we last have a thread on this?

Where is the significant flow to the Uni from? Would it be efficiently catered for by an hourly Northern medium distance service?
Or would a Morecambe-Oubeck Up Loop shuttle (needing an extra unit and a signalled crossover, and possibly awkward to path through the Down at Lancaster) actually be more use - if not more economical!

Garstang is a different situation anyway, with the old station site well away from the town and no obvious better option.

The flow would probably be best served by the Cumbria - Airport services - lots of international students, and the existing bus routes are empty beyond Lancaster bus station.

But a solid 2tph between the city and ‘parkway’ could help remove the bus crowding on the corridor…

What trains would you be expecting to take the stops? Avanti wouldn't want to know so you are stuck with Northern. You couldn't put the stops in the Airport Windermere/Barrow as an Avanti is right behind you in both directions. You might get one stop in a TPE. I have only looked at a very constrained area so not end to end, so no idea about knock on nearer Manchester and further north.

The December timetable has the Cumbria leaving Preston on the down at xx45, with the fast Glasgow leaving at xx41. Next down path appears to be at xx03, with no freight paths in between - surely that would be sufficient to fit in an additional stop?

Turnaround time at Barrow / Windermere is a negligible issue - there’s slack at the north end, so it could work with some adjustments to the timetabling north of the hypothetical new station without having to touch Manchester timings.

 

[The Planner]

The December timetable has the Cumbria leaving Preston on the down at xx45, with the fast Glasgow leaving at xx41. Next down path appears to be at xx03, with no freight paths in between - surely that would be sufficient to fit in an additional stop?

Turnaround time at Barrow / Windermere is a negligible issue - there’s slack at the north end, so it could work with some adjustments to the timetabling north of the hypothetical new station without having to touch Manchester timings.

Taking a random one from the December timetable, 1C55. Leaves Preston at 1145, if you add a Garstang and University stop, you are looking at least 5 minutes to add those. That gets you to Lancaster at 1206½. 9S54 arrives at Lancaster at 1207, with a 4 minute headway that doesn't work....

 

[30907]

Taking a random one from the December timetable, 1C55. Leaves Preston at 1145, if you add a Garstang and University stop, you are looking at least 5 minutes to add those. That gets you to Lancaster at 1206½. 9S54 arrives at Lancaster at 1207, with a 4 minute headway that doesn't work....

It looks to be easier southbound (the OP has overlooked the Birmingham-Scotland service, which has an hourly path even if not all are running).

However: Lancaster-Oubeck then walk to the centre of the site would be 20min. The 100 bus is allowed 30min and runs every 15. To match the generalised journey time (travel time + 1/2 service interval) you would need a half hourly service to make an impact (hence my thought of Morecambe). (I know the traffic can be bad BTW!)

If the issue is one of overcrowding on buses, then more buses, or perhaps a cycleway with subsidised electric bikes would be better?

 

[Agent_Squash]

Taking a random one from the December timetable, 1C55. Leaves Preston at 1145, if you add a Garstang and University stop, you are looking at least 5 minutes to add those. That gets you to Lancaster at 1206½. 9S54 arrives at Lancaster at 1207, with a 4 minute headway that doesn't work....

I happened to be looking at an hour where the Birmingham path wasn’t used! Silly me for being presumptive.

But still - surely you could keep the Northern at Preston for slightly longer (until xx48, for example) before holding it at the hypothetical Uni stop loop? Platform 5 also gives some potential as well - the pattern is very much south, north is it not.

It looks to be easier southbound (the OP has overlooked the Birmingham-Scotland service, which has an hourly path even if not all are running).

However: Lancaster-Oubeck then walk to the centre of the site would be 20min. The 100 bus is allowed 30min and runs every 15. To match the generalised journey time (travel time + 1/2 service interval) you would need a half hourly service to make an impact (hence my thought of Morecambe). (I know the traffic can be bad BTW!)

If the issue is one of overcrowding on buses, then more buses, or perhaps a cycleway with subsidised electric bikes would be better?

A cycle way would be good, but I doubt it would be that popular in the winter months.

The 1/1A buses tend to do the journey in 20 minutes - but 2tph seems like it would be necessary anyway to make the numbers work?

 

[30907]

But still - surely you could keep the Northern at Preston for slightly longer (until xx48, for example) before holding it at the hypothetical Uni stop loop?

That would add 7min or so to Preston-Lancaster (instead of 3min without looping)

The 1/1A buses tend to do the journey in 20 minutes - but 2tph seems like it would be necessary anyway to make the numbers work?

Sorry, shouldn't have used Googlemaps to check, but it makes it more difficult to compete: bustimes.org gives at least 7bph , so generalised time =30min (to/from Bus Station, passing city centre). To match that by train you need a 20min service interval

From Preston, Morecambe/Bare Lane or Carnforth an hourly train would be competitive on time - if there are significant flows!

 

[Chester1]

I can understand the appeal but as other members have pointed out it would be a timetabling nightmare. I am sure the government would be keen to close many small main line stations if it was politically viable. The problems caused by additional stations in the Lancaster area would be especially acute because it will not be relieved by HS2. The bus service in the Lancaster area is excellent and the solution to overcrowding is more buses.

As enthusiasts we have a tendency to see heavy rail as the solution to every transport problem. Its often not viable or the best solution. Buses and trams are often better solutions.

 

[randyrippley]

The university traffic mostly originates in the housing estates in and around Morecambe and Lancaster, most well served by the bus network.
Getting a train would mean getting a bus to the town centre, another to the station (or walking), waiting for and catching a train for a two mile journey, then at Oubeck either another walk up the hill, or getting back on the same bus route you started on......

If you really wanted to do it, the only logical train service would be to extend the Morecambe service to Oubeck, reversing in the siding.
But it really wouldn't work as it wouldn't serve the estates
Only way to replace the bus service is with a trolleybus - the route is too steep for trams

Of course there's the option of a cablecar running M6 J33-University-University of Cumbria - Infirmary - rail station - St Georges Quay and then along the old Midland route to Morecambe

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which route is too steep for trams? Didn't trams once actually run up the A6? The steepest bit is at the city end if I recall.

But realistically electric buses are more viable.

 

[Chester1]

Which route is too steep for trams? Didn't trams once actually run up the A6? The steepest bit is at the city end if I recall.

But realistically electric buses are more viable.

The road from A6 onto the campus is very steep. Its potentially just about within gradiant limit of a tram. Neither tram trains on WCML or trams down the A6 is practical. Neither would be remotely financially viable if it where practical. The existing bus system has worked well for many decades.

 

[30907]

Which route is too steep for trams? Didn't trams once actually run up the A6? The steepest bit is at the city end if I recall.

If you wanted a tram you might go via Bowerham and then on reserved track as an alternative. But a tramway is unnecessary - it might make a good cycle route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you wanted a tram you might go via Bowerham and then on reserved track as an alternative. But a tramway is unnecessary - it might make a good cycle route.

Lancaster is probably a good potential e-bike and e-scooter city, but probably not "normal" bikes as it's so hilly. That said, students are typically young and fit...

I'd agree it could really do with some Dutch style cycle infrastructure.

 

[Iskra]

The buses would still have to run anyway to pick up the students that live between the city centre and campus.

How many students are going to want to walk 20mins up the hill in the wind and rain? Even more so international students with their luggage.

I really don’t see an issue with the current service position, opening another station would just be a drain on capacity and dilute the role of the current Lancaster station.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

Lancaster is probably a good potential e-bike and e-scooter city, but probably not "normal" bikes as it's so hilly. That said, students are typically young and fit...

I'd agree it could really do with some Dutch style cycle infrastructure.

Lancaster already has quite good cycle infrastructure anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lancaster already has quite good cycle infrastructure anyway.

I strongly disagree. It's got one off road path from the city to Morecambe on the old trackbed, pretty much to MK Redway standards but with a petty crime problem, but little else of value.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2022 ==

The buses would still have to run anyway to pick up the students that live between the city centre and campus.

How many students are going to want to walk 20mins up the hill in the wind and rain? Even more so international students with their luggage.

It's more than 20 minutes. Takes me about half an hour to walk from the city to Scotforth, and it's about another 2km on top of that. 45 minutes probably. Google reckons 1h12.

Indeed, as you say you wouldn't replace the buses with an hourly train. That said with a plan to expand the city south (Bailrigg Garden Village) I can see the potential value in such a station (the case is certainly no worse than it was for Euxton Balshaw Lane), though it'd only likely get the hourly Northern service.

 

[Iskra]

I strongly disagree. It's got one off road path from the city to Morecambe on the old trackbed, pretty much to MK Redway standards but with a petty crime problem, but little else of value.

It’s easy enough to cycle out to the uni too, and then there’s the canal towpath for North/South options.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s easy enough to cycle out to the uni too, and then there’s the canal towpath for North/South options.

It's on the busy A6. Old Mrs Smith won't ever cycle to the shops without Dutch style provision away from motor vehicles. Though to be fair students probably will, I had no qualms about Wilmslow Road when I was 18 and that's far worse, though I don't fancy it now having spent 20 years getting used to the Redways!

Canal towpaths are great for a cycling day out at low speed but aren't suitable for when you actually want to get somewhere, you can't go fast (much more than walking pace) unless you like knocking pedestrians and fishermen in the drink.

 

[Iskra]

It's on the busy A6. Old Mrs Smith won't ever cycle to the shops without Dutch style provision away from motor vehicles. Though to be fair students probably will, I had no qualms about Wilmslow Road when I was 18 and that's far worse, though I don't fancy it now having spent 20 years getting used to the Redways!

Canal towpaths are great for a cycling day out at low speed but aren't suitable for when you actually want to get somewhere, you can't go fast (much more than walking pace) unless you like knocking pedestrians and fishermen in the drink.

The A6 is a lot more attractive since the Heysham bypass was built. Lots used it when I was a student there, and it is now a much more attractive option so hopefully even more do now.

That’s possibly true in the summer, but having walked said towpaths, they aren’t particularly busy.

 

[randyrippley]

Which route is too steep for trams? Didn't trams once actually run up the A6? The steepest bit is at the city end if I recall.

But realistically electric buses are more viable.

Bowerham, Hala, the University approach

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bowerham, Hala, the University approach

Bowerham is not too steep for trams. One of Lancaster's original electric tram routes went up there! Modern kit would make easy work of it.

The Isle of Man Electric Railway shows just how steep you can go on adhesion even with really old kit - it is surprising.