New sleeper routes

[6Gman]

Imagine if the TransCumbria line were still open...

Among other things, you could have a sleeper. An overnight service to Penrith, Keswick, Cockermouth, Workington, Whitehaven and St Bees would do a decent trade, and you could also potentially route it via the Settle and Carlisle if the Penrith-Appleby line were still open too, though a routing via Newcastle could benefit business travellers. A premium overnight service to the northern Lake District could probably do decently, though admittedly only with leisure passengers.

Penrith, Keswick and Cockermouth are small towns; Workington and Whitehaven are scarcely affluent; St Bees is so obscure I don't even know how to classify it!

If places like Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen require a massive subsidy to maintain their sleepers . . .

 

[6Gman]

Alternatively, what about a weekly sleeper service from London St Pancras to North Wales, routed to call at Leicester, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham at silly o'clock on the way?
Perhaps something from Glasgow Central to South Wales via the ECML, stopping off at the major cities on the way?

Have you thought whether people really want to pay a sleeper supplement in order to be turfed out at 3am or whenever?

 

[6Gman]

If you have a pendolino based sleeper do you end up rolling out of bed?

No, you just bang your head (or your feet) each time it tilts.

 

[Bald Rick]

I think that certain routes could work, mostly I think from London into Europe. The Nightstar idea was killed off by the low-cost airlines, but with the 'flygskam' (flight shame) movement, I can see it coming back on select routes. Eurostar already have routes down to the Alps and southern France, I think these sorts of routes would do well as a sleeper. Why waste a day travelling when you can do it whilst you sleep? Being able to book out a couchette would work well for families.

Again, work in what way? Not remotely sustainable in a financial sense, and not really so environmentally either.

 

[backontrack]

Not for those with back trouble

Never mind back pain – they wouldn't be good for any sane human!

 

[bluenoxid]

It would be interesting to compare whole life costs of a Sleeper versus the Plane that it would be trying to replace.

It’s going to require subsidy and I’m minded to suggest that subsidising hotels stays at hubs might be more effective than running a sleeper.

 

[popeter45]

Again, work in what way? Not remotely sustainable in a financial sense, and not really so environmentally either.

Vienna to Brussels and Paris to Venice are very successful sleeper routes of similar length to a London-South France sleeper that its route as a overnight trip is already popular ,how would it be not financial sensible to replace a unconformable seat only trip with a sleeper service that people would for sure pay for

 

[Energy]

I think that certain routes could work, mostly I think from London into Europe. The Nightstar idea was killed off by the low-cost airlines, but with the 'flygskam' (flight shame) movement, I can see it coming back on select routes. Eurostar already have routes down to the Alps and southern France, I think these sorts of routes would do well as a sleeper. Why waste a day travelling when you can do it whilst you sleep? Being able to book out a couchette would work well for families.

doubt it, Eurostar trains can do it in a couple hours, not long enough for a sleeper. Plus passenger trains through the eurotunnel have to be long, Id be interested how much demand their would be and if it is enough for the length of train required.

 

[popeter45]

doubt it, Eurostar trains can do it in a couple hours, not long enough for a sleeper. Plus passenger trains through the eurotunnel have to be long, Id be interested how much demand their would be and if it is enough for the length of train required.

think is as a sleeper would most likely be 2 loco + carriages once other side of tunnel could split for many destinations, e.g. a 5 car service to Marseilles with another 5 car service to Berlin and a final 5 car service to Venice

 

[Bald Rick]

Vienna to Brussels and Paris to Venice are very successful sleeper routes of similar length to a London-South France sleeper that its route as a overnight trip is already popular ,how would it be not financial sensible to replace a unconformable seat only trip with a sleeper service that people would for sure pay for

Define ‘very successful’ and ‘financially sensible’

Those trains will lose money.

 

[popeter45]

Define ‘very successful’ and ‘financially sensible’

Those trains will lose money.

thello has as a open access operator run the Paris-Venice sleeper for a decade
until recent events stopped it from running the Nightjet service to Brussels was regularly fully booked even at €175 per person

 

[supervc-10]

Portion working from St Pancras is what I had in mind for a European sleeper. Would also enable larger European profile sleeper cars, improving the economics somewhat.

The issue I would imagine is the track access charges for the Tunnel. Although portion working would I imagine help with that.

 

[Bald Rick]

thello has as a open access operator run the Paris-Venice sleeper for a decade
until recent events stopped it from running the Nightjet service to Brussels was regularly fully booked even at €175 per person

Ah, open access.

 

[popeter45]

Portion working from St Pancras is what I had in mind for a European sleeper. Would also enable larger European profile sleeper cars, improving the economics somewhat.

The issue I would imagine is the track access charges for the Tunnel. Although portion working would I imagine help with that.

according to this https://www.getlinkgroup.com/content/uploads/2019/09/Eurotunnel-network-statement-2020.pdf
it would add approx 20-40 euros to each passenger ticket

 

[Ianno87]

think is as a sleeper would most likely be 2 loco + carriages once other side of tunnel could split for many destinations, e.g. a 5 car service to Marseilles with another 5 car service to Berlin and a final 5 car service to Venice

The economics of such short trains over such long distances from the split point will be diabolically bad.

To give it a cat in hell's chance of it stacking up you'd need to combine the portion for Berlin with a portion from, say, Paris at the split point. The portion to Marseilles with a porrion from Brussels/Amsterdam, etc etc. That's how European sleepers are run economically.

 

[popeter45]

The economics of such short trains over such long distances from the split point will be diabolically bad.

To give it a cat in hell's chance of it stacking up you'd need to combine the portion for Berlin with a portion from, say, Paris at the split point. The portion to Marseilles with a porrion from Brussels/Amsterdam, etc etc. That's how European sleepers are run economically.

i sized them up for combining with other sleeper services beyond the channel

 

[billio]

St Pancras to the Mediterranean e.g. Marseille, Bordeaux, Rome & Barcelona. It would be a brilliant alternative to a horrible Boeing 737 (The Jet2 ones are alright) or Airbus A320.

I think better to have a sleeper service from further north than St Pancras because one the issues is getting to London earlier enough to catch early morning cross-channel trains. Something like Leeds or Manchester to Paris, or perhaps even Glasgow or Edinburgh to Paris. Passport checks etc. could be done on the train. Is motorrail a possibility (but not to Paris !).

 

[Bald Rick]

according to this https://www.getlinkgroup.com/content/uploads/2019/09/Eurotunnel-network-statement-2020.pdf
it would add approx 20-40 euros to each passenger ticket

The per passenger toll that Eurotunnel charge Eurostar is £23 each way. That is not the track access charge, which is additional.

The big issue is building tunnel compliant rolling stock, presumably it would need to run on HS1 (more access charges, v expensive), and finding a path for it.

 

[Clansman]

Rule of thumb for any new sleeper services and proposals should follow two principles:

1) Acknowledge that it's not going to be profitable
2) Is only justified if the demand and subsidy required is calculated at the same rates, or better than, the Night Riviera and the Caledonian Sleeper.

Honestly can't see anywhere that could meet these domestically, hence why the sleeper network in across the country is the two we have now, and always will be in the best of times.

 

[darloscott]

I think better to have a sleeper service from further north than St Pancras because one the issues is getting to London earlier enough to catch early morning cross-channel trains. Something like Leeds or Manchester to Paris, or perhaps even Glasgow or Edinburgh to Paris. Passport checks etc. could be done on the train. Is motorrail a possibility (but not to Paris !).

This is the only idea I could see getting anywhere near a decent revenue... something from Scotland probably down the main lines - you'd probably have to start with one - into a few points across Europe possibly headed towards Berlin to get a realistic journey time overnight and grab some of the 'non flying' market. It still wouldn't get anywhere remotely near covering its costs though. Best to work on why the Caledonian services aren't profitable first.

 

[Aictos]

Rather then consider UK to Europe sleepers, why not look at Eurostar and see how improvements if any could be done to improve connections with the OBB Nightstar services.

 

[RT4038]

This is the only idea I could see getting anywhere near a decent revenue... something from Scotland probably down the main lines - you'd probably have to start with one - into a few points across Europe possibly headed towards Berlin to get a realistic journey time overnight and grab some of the 'non flying' market. It still wouldn't get anywhere remotely near covering its costs though. Best to work on why the Caledonian services aren't profitable first.

Plus I can't see any good reason to subsidise 'non-flying' market that is discretionary (e.g. holidaymakers), and the non-discretionary 'non-flying' market must be very small indeed.
Anyone who thinks that most business people view a night in a sleeping car is equal, or preferable, to flight + hotel (or flight only at early doors) needs to go and experience lots of sleeping cars whilst on business trips first.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is the only idea I could see getting anywhere near a decent revenue... something from Scotland probably down the main lines - you'd probably have to start with one - into a few points across Europe possibly headed towards Berlin to get a realistic journey time overnight and grab some of the 'non flying' market. It still wouldn't get anywhere remotely near covering its costs though. Best to work on why the Caledonian services aren't profitable first.

To put it into context - Scotland to Berlin would be in the order of 20 hours, and the entire market from the whole of Scotland to the whole of Germany could fit on two return trains a day. The number of people who would happily pay more, to take ten times as long to make the journey would be in single figures a day, if that.

 

[Aictos]

To put it into context - Scotland to Berlin would be in the order of 20 hours, and the entire market from the whole of Scotland to the whole of Germany could fit on two return trains a day. The number of people who would happily pay more, to take ten times as long to make the journey would be in single figures a day, if that.

I rather have improved Eurostar/Thalys connections from London to Cologne from which you can pick up direct services to Berlin, Munich, Frankfurt and Hamburg eg operate Eurostar 2/3 times a day between London and Cologne as a extension of the Brussels service together with Thalys potentially running some London services too.

A UK to Europe sleeper as I've said before isn't viable not when you have the potential to offer High Speed services between St Pancras and Europe which I rather see.