New sleeper routes

[backontrack]

Imagine if the TransCumbria line were still open...

Among other things, you could have a sleeper. An overnight service to Penrith, Keswick, Cockermouth, Workington, Whitehaven and St Bees would do a decent trade, and you could also potentially route it via the Settle and Carlisle if the Penrith-Appleby line were still open too, though a routing via Newcastle could benefit business travellers. A premium overnight service to the northern Lake District could probably do decently, though admittedly only with leisure passengers.

But this got me thinking about sleeper routes in general – with the lines that we DO still have in situ. It's probably a question with a negative answer, but are there any potential sleeper routes on the network as is that could work, potentially?

I can't help wonder if extending the Lowlands sleeper down to Tweedbank could make sense from a financial point of view, although asking everyone to decant swiftly at Edinburgh – or investing in a lengthy layover – might be a strong argument against.

Alternatively, what about a weekly sleeper service from London St Pancras to North Wales, routed to call at Leicester, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham at silly o'clock on the way?
Perhaps something from Glasgow Central to South Wales via the ECML, stopping off at the major cities on the way?

 

[Iskra]

I think it's very unlikely that we will ever see any new sleeper routes, but I wouldn't mind seeing how an overnight XC sleeper service that did Plymouth, Newton Abbot, Exeter, Taunton, Bristol, Birmingham, Crewe, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Dundee, Aberdeen, (maybe on to Inverness too).

Using the TP core would save some money as it's already in use overnight, as can be Plymouth-Bristol and Edinburgh-Aberdeen. You could even theoretically be able to make it a portion to be added onto the existing services. However, as well as traditional sleeper coaches and overnight seating coach a normal day coach should be attached too for passengers making shorter journeys or to just act as a general night train. It could help a lot of passengers get home in times of disruption on the rest of the network too.

I think the most likely sleeper route to be re-introduced would be something cross-channel; a lot of European countries seem to be moving back towards long-distance sleeper trains as a result of environmental concerns. The current crisis amongst airlines may accentuate this trend. Deja Vu, I know...

 

[43096]

Imagine if the TransCumbria line were still open...

Among other things, you could have a profitable sleeper. An overnight service to Penrith, Keswick, Cockermouth, Workington, Whitehaven and St Bees would do a decent trade, and you could also potentially route it via the Settle and Carlisle if the Penrith-Appleby line were still open too, though a routing via Newcastle could benefit business travellers. A premium overnight service to the northern Lake District could probably do decently, though admittedly only with leisure passengers.

Profitable? Seriously? Given that both the surviving sleeper services are heavily subsidised, that service is only going to lose huge amounts of money.

But this got me thinking about sleeper routes in general – with the lines that we DO still have in situ. It's probably a question with a negative answer, but are there any potential sleeper routes on the network as is that could work, potentially?

I can't help wonder if extending the Lowlands sleeper down to Tweedbank could make sense from a financial point of view, although asking everyone to decant swiftly at Edinburgh – or investing in a lengthy layover – might be a strong argument against.

Alternatively, what about a weekly sleeper service from London St Pancras to North Wales, routed to call at Leicester, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham at silly o'clock on the way?
Perhaps something from Glasgow Central to South Wales via the ECML, stopping off at the major cities on the way?

Only a Cross-Country service (like the old Plymouth-Edinburgh) would have even a remote chance of working. As for the other suggestions, pie in the sky fantasy stuff - especially that North Wales one routed Leeds-Manchester-Birmingham-North Wales.

 

[backontrack]

Profitable? Seriously? Given that both the surviving sleeper services are heavily subsidised, that service is only going to lose huge amounts of money.

No, it really isn't, because it doesn't exist.

 

[Bald Rick]

Among other things, you could have a profitable sleeper.

Well you lost the argument right at the start. Given that in normal times the Cally sleeper loses over £100 for every single passenger trip (including those in the seats, and those who use it as a day service in Scotland), no sleepers in this country will ever be ‘profitable’.

And the concept of a weekly sleeper? Spending upwards of £30m on rolling stock that makes 100 trips a year?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I am reminded of some individual who turned up at a National Timetable Planning Meeting one year with suggestions for an Edinburgh - Marylebone sleeper via the Settle route , and an Edinburgh to Dover - same routing - key attraction being 2x37 haulage - trains to convey car flats as well.

Now there are sometimes good ideas ......(shall we say ,it went not much further than that)

 

[popeter45]

i think a network of smaller sleepers could possibly work if done right
something like 2-4 car DEMU's/BMU's for stuff like Euston-Manchester or Plymouth-Newcastle

 

[Bald Rick]

i think a network of smaller sleepers could possibly work if done right
something like 2-4 car DEMU's/BMU's for stuff like Euston-Manchester or Plymouth-Newcastle

“Work” in what respect? Make money? No chance!

Who would want to use a sleeper from London to Manchester when the normal train would be 2 hours, and almost certainly cheaper?

 

[popeter45]

“Work” in what respect? Make money? No chance!

Who would want to use a sleeper from London to Manchester when the normal train would be 2 hours, and almost certainly cheaper?

as ive said many time they cater to 2 different groups
the ability to combine travel and a hotel is very attractive to some people

 

[aar0]

Perhaps something from Glasgow Central to South Wales via the ECML, stopping off at the major cities on the way?

I would be a monthly customer... I wonder if, as we become less interested in flights and driving as a country, sleepers will have to come back?

 

[Iskra]

as ive said many time they cater to 2 different groups
the ability to combine travel and a hotel is very attractive to some people

The Pendolino has killed any demand for a Manchester-London sleeper. HS2 will only worsen the situation.

 

[JonathanH]

I would be a monthly customer... I wonder if, as we become less interested in flights and driving as a country, sleepers will have to come back?

If in some more conscious world we become less interested in flights and driving, which we might, we will have to become less interested in travel, full stop. A low capacity sleeper is not going to be a good use of our carbon allowance any more than flights or driving.

 

[Halish Railway]

St Pancras to the Mediterranean e.g. Marseille, Bordeaux, Rome & Barcelona. It would be a brilliant alternative to a horrible Boeing 737 (The Jet2 ones are alright) or Airbus A320.

 

[aar0]

It will use less of it though? An electric loco all the way, and a de-carbonised grid...

 

[popeter45]

St Pancras to the Mediterranean e.g. Marseille, Bordeaux, Rome & Barcelona. It would be a brilliant alternative to a horrible Boeing 737 (The Jet2 ones are alright) or Airbus A320.

i would expand that to a full service across Europe with a eastern train as well to Berlin, Copenhagen and Vienna, could integrate into the OBB Nightjet services but major issue of with one train a day couldn't justify the installation of required boarder controls, maybe time them to pull into Lille at like 7am for boarder checks then either final pull to London or just take next Eurostar

 

[37424]

Imagine if the TransCumbria line were still open...

Among other things, you could have a profitable sleeper. An overnight service to Penrith, Keswick, Cockermouth, Workington, Whitehaven and St Bees would do a decent trade, and you could also potentially route it via the Settle and Carlisle if the Penrith-Appleby line were still open too, though a routing via Newcastle could benefit business travellers. A premium overnight service to the northern Lake District could probably do decently, though admittedly only with leisure passengers.

But this got me thinking about sleeper routes in general – with the lines that we DO still have in situ. It's probably a question with a negative answer, but are there any potential sleeper routes on the network as is that could work, potentially?

I can't help wonder if extending the Lowlands sleeper down to Tweedbank could make sense from a financial point of view, although asking everyone to decant swiftly at Edinburgh – or investing in a lengthy layover – might be a strong argument against.

Alternatively, what about a weekly sleeper service from London St Pancras to North Wales, routed to call at Leicester, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, Manchester and Birmingham at silly o'clock on the way?
Perhaps something from Glasgow Central to South Wales via the ECML, stopping off at the major cities on the way?

If you go back to the 1970's there were sleepers all over the place from London including a Glasgow to London via the S&C and Midland route, Sleepers to Barrow, Stranraer, Holyhead, Manchester, Sunderland, Newcastle, Leeds, West Wales etc. and the majority of those survived until the late 80's but as already indicated sleepers are generally just not cost effective and require a significant subsidy.

So then if you ask the question do you spend subsidy on sleepers or is it better spent on daytime services, I would say the latter, and of those listed above some have daytime services of around 2 to 3 hours, and the Irish crossings of course are these days affected by cheap flights and in the case of Stranraer moving the ferry.

 

[Bald Rick]

St Pancras to the Mediterranean e.g. Marseille, Bordeaux, Rome & Barcelona. It would be a brilliant alternative to a horrible Boeing 737 (The Jet2 ones are alright) or Airbus A320.

As has been said many times before - not an alternative many people could afford, in either time or money terms.

 

[Bald Rick]

as ive said many time they cater to 2 different groups
the ability to combine travel and a hotel is very attractive to some people

Not very many though, when Manchester is just two hours up the road. Would you be prepared to pay £200+ for such a service?

 

[Aictos]

If anything was to change with UK sleepers then it should be to bring the operations under one roof but keep the sub brands in order to reduce costs further.

If it was viable then a Cross Country sleeper linking the two would be useful as a alternative to the 13.5hr XC service that currently operates in one direction, the sleeper would operate in both directions instead.

 

[yoyothehobo]

Having watched the recent series of race across the world on TV, it strikes me in South America, just how many of the buses are deliberately overnighters, so you can basically sleep. That is because the distance between places is so vast. in the UK there are very few places that are more than 5 hours away from any other by train by the most direct route and the ones that are, probably dont have a huge amount of end to end traffic.

 

[Ianno87]

The Pendolino has killed any demand for a Manchester-London sleeper. HS2 will only worsen the situation.

Manchester-Euston will end up with the same journey time as Cambridge-Liverpool Street.

And I don't see the calls for a Cambridge-London sleeper service, for pretty obvious reasons....

 

[yoyothehobo]

If you have a pendolino based sleeper do you end up rolling out of bed?

 

[backontrack]

If you have a pendolino based sleeper do you end up rolling out of bed?

Sleeper coaches would've been a good use for the Pacers.

 

[Iskra]

If you have a pendolino based sleeper do you end up rolling out of bed?

No, because you sleep across the width of the train, rather than along the length of it. So it might move you in your bunk from top to bottom but shouldn’t laterally. It could even help you stay in your bed?

Of course all sleepers do carry a risk of you falling out of bed. On Swedish night trains you get a seatbelt that stops you falling out of bed.

 

[gordonthemoron]

Of course all sleepers do carry a risk of you falling out of bed. On Swedish night trains you get a seatbelt that stops you falling out of bed.

Oebb couchettes used to have nothing to stop you falling out, scary

 

[TheSeeker]

Is the full sleeper option required? When my inlaws lived in Luxembourg we got the "Vauban" EuroCity Milan train several times on a Friday evening from Brussels. Normal corridor and compartment stock. Often a whole family to a compartment with a big picnic.

Brussels – Luxembourg – Metz – Strasbourg – Basel – Milan

Not sure what time it arrived in Milan but I would think it's not that uncomfortable to spend the night in a train like that. Best part was being able to switch the lights off in the compartment, draw the curtains and have control of the heating.

 

[superalbs]

If you have a pendolino based sleeper do you end up rolling out of bed?

There are some Talgo sleepers, and I've never heard of people falling out, so I presume that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[supervc-10]

I think that certain routes could work, mostly I think from London into Europe. The Nightstar idea was killed off by the low-cost airlines, but with the 'flygskam' (flight shame) movement, I can see it coming back on select routes. Eurostar already have routes down to the Alps and southern France, I think these sorts of routes would do well as a sleeper. Why waste a day travelling when you can do it whilst you sleep? Being able to book out a couchette would work well for families.

 

[Whistler40145]

Sleeper coaches would've been a good use for the Pacers.

Not for those with back trouble

 

[HSTEd]

I'm afraid without a collosal gauge clearance programme, the surviving sleepers are going to be fighting a losing battle against simple economics.

We can't pack enough sleeping berths into the trains to make it worthwhile.
If we had a finnish loading gauge and a 25m vehicle could have 38 sleeping berths.... the situation might be different.