New Signals

[ralphchadkirk]

What would you say if the signalling grade were suggesting that all trains would be driverless? That would save £££.

 

[Metroland]

Ok. 3 managers to oversee the automation. + 2 relief.

0700-1500, 1500-2200, 2200-0700 and with 99,9% on auto....

You don't know what the hell you are talking about, route setting is just a tiny fraction of the overall workload. I hear lots of this rubbish, sorry you don't understand railway operation.

Most of the workload is:

Incident management, engineering possessions, telephone verbal instructions and inquiries, admin, delay acquisition, dealing with emergencies, TOC liaison.

Take this from someone that has worked several IECCs, and been in quite a few signal boxes, including most of the London underground control centres.

The next chop for automation is the elimination of drivers and replacement of lineside signalling. But even then, you still need someone on board to assist with emergencies and other issues, so the cost savings don't make any sense.
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They could quite easily run the new TVSC at Didcot & displace how many? Saving ££££.

Have you been in an IECC when there are failures and major out of course working? I can tell you even a modest area with full ARS it soon falls apart with someone that doesn't know what they are doing? You don't have enough hands, pens, ears to deal with even just a few miles where there are 20-30 trains at a stand, several teams of techs, station staff ringing, crossing phones going, TOCs phones for set swaps, replatforming and god knows who else.

I'm yet to be convinced one man can handle any more than a typical IECC workstation area (which is typically 4-20 miles) let alone the whole of the GWML. It's the realms of utter fantasy.

On the subject of delays, what you probably don't know is every minute of delay on the railways is accounted for, and assigned to who is responsible. If a signaller gets a lot of delay attributed to him/her, they will soon find themselves being demoted or out of a job.

A lot of that information comes via signallers, and does information to passengers. People that really know about this subject know the job is not some sort of manual route setting gig a monkey can do, but dealing with people, keeping the railway safe: such as passengers falling onto tracks, level crossing near misses, SPAD, technical failures, and keeping it on time through effective incident management by getting clear instructions and information out to people that need it: These would be either working to your instructions (such as drivers, handsignalmen, points operations), rely on your information (such as station staff, shunters, passengers, freight users, the police and emergency services, level crossing users, engineering workers, S&T, Pway, incident response). On top of that there is information coming in all the time from TOCs, the emergency services, the environment agency, regional or national control, managers and technical staff, electrical controllers, which all needs acting on, recording, and have decisions made about it within the framework or complex rules and regulations, which are not always black and white. None of that is suited to any sort of computer operation: railways, because they involve complex interactions between machines, people and the wider world, need an intelligent mind to oversee them, and that's why signal boxes are the nerve centre of any sort of operation. Visit a busy one for 12 hours, it might open your eyes a little instead of posting ignorant comments.

 

[33056]

A little story from a few years ago.

One of the boxes I used to work was a PSB on a main line, the station had a train crew depot which had a fairly steady throughput of new drivers. There was an arrangement in place between the driver trainers and the local inspector that they would take the trainee drivers into the PSB to show them how the "other side" works.

This was post 1988, one day a group with a wide mix of ages came up, most of whom listened politely and asked lots of questions - all except one young man who was obviously bored. Eventually he was heard to mutter "don't know why you are showing me this, I'm going to be a driver!" Quick as a flash, the signalling inspector asked if he had been "booked in for the operation yet?", "whats that?" mumbled the wannabe driver "the one to have your brain removed" was the reply, cue much laughter from both sides.

Back in those days, signalmen on our area (patently unfairly) used to reckon that you had to have this operation to be a driver, no doubt the drivers had similar theories about signalmen. Sadly, that is one of the big problems on the modern railway - a lack of appreciation of each others work between the two grades that are the most vital for the safe running of the railway. I consider myself lucky in that I grew up in an era where cab rides were relatively common, in return, my door was always open for interested drivers. I have also done other jobs on the railway including dealing with (but not being!) traincrew, so I know there are good and bad in each grade.

 

[Metroland]

The standard of knowledge of drivers with regard to signalling, and what actually goes on in control centres is, on the whole, appalling.

Ditto, the same can be said for the signalling grade about train driving. Especially with regard to technical SPADs. (pleased to say I never put a signal back in front of a train, apart from in emergencies).

On the whole, the general technical knowledge of the public about railways (and indeed transport as a whole) and how they really work is almost non-existent, and even among some enthusiasts it's not that great.

I'm quite willing to explain things to people with regards railway ops, but it does rather get my back up when people go into rants about how 'it's all so simple, if only X was done' when they clearly don't know what they are taking about - the same as I don't know what I'm talking about (like the rest of us) on numerous other technical and interest areas.

 

[CarterUSM]

When I done my guards training some years back, I had the pleasure of visiting Dunblane signal box and I believe this arrangement is still in place albeit other boxes in the area are also occasionally used. Although I had little problem with the basics of signalling block systems, but it was exceedingly helpful and informative to see the operation and layout in action as opposed to filling in a diagram with the relevant symbols and block sections. There will generally be people in a class whether it be for drivers, guards or whomever, that may have difficulties with the whole set up, and has been said, the opposite may apply also.

 

[Maxfly]

There were no failures.

Strangely when the driver got onto the signaller via the phone on each signal, as soon as he picked up the handset, the signal magically turned green!

Explain that! Or was it just someone having 40 winks again! Why was it routed via Westbury when nothing was wrong? Even the train manager couldn't find out the reason.

An exactly how quickly did the dirver contact the signaller then? staight away or did he/she do what a lot do wait a few mins then get out tthe cab and head for the spt just as something clears ahead, sods law i know but the sooner gsm-r is used by all the better!!

sorry but you come across as an arrogant fud who does not have the foggiest about how things work and have your mind set to believe what you want to with any other reason blocked out as it doesn't suit ya