New services to Grangemouth

[PYROOGOBBO]

Heyo!, So with more talk around Grangemouth opening up as a train station, And the Talgo factory being talked about, is there potentially a case for Opening up the Kincardine line and linking grangemouth and dunfermilne with a rail service between the two, maybe a so called forth valley stopper

(Grangemouth - Falkirk Grahamston - Larbert - Stirling - Alloa - Talgo Factory Kincardine - Culross - CairneyHill - Dunfermilne, Maybe even a service Onwards to Dundee?)

Maybe with usage of Class 158 Stock, or 158 + 170. Or 320's if Line is electrified
(wont lie i'd love to see FLIRT's on the line , but this is probably me being a dunderhead fantasist)

 

[318266]

If we were to re-open that line, that service would not really suit the line for various reasons.

1. Using your route, the train would almost create a circle from Grangemouth to Kincardine, which looks rather silly on a map.
2. Glasgow and Edinburgh are not served at all which has some side effects:
People from Glasgow can't go to Clackmannan/Kincardine/Culross and people from Edinburgh can't go to Culross/Kincardine/Clackmannan direct.
As a lot of rail routes are mainly commuting belts, it wouldn't make much sense to avoid where most people go to work just to join up with Grangemouth and Dundee.
3. From that direction, a train heading to Dundee would usually avoid Perth as there is a more direct route.

Therefore, I suggest the stopping pattern of this:
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Bishopbriggs - Lenzie - Croy - Larbert - Stirling - Alloa (for Clackmannan as they are really close) - Kincardine
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Croy - Stirling - Alloa - Kincardine - Culross - Rosyth (via new curve) - Inverkeithing - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley
1tph Kincardine - Culross - Rosyth - Inverkeithing - North Queensferry - Dalmeny - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley
and to solve the Grangemouth problem..
3tph Falkirk Grahamston - Grangemouth (operated by a Parry People Mover or a modern 153 of sorts)

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

If we were to re-open that line, that service would not really suit the line for various reasons.

1. Using your route, the train would almost create a circle from Grangemouth to Kincardine, which looks rather silly on a map.
2. Glasgow and Edinburgh are not served at all which has some side effects:
People from Glasgow can't go to Clackmannan/Kincardine/Culross and people from Edinburgh can't go to Culross/Kincardine/Clackmannan direct.
As a lot of rail routes are mainly commuting belts, it wouldn't make much sense to avoid where most people go to work just to join up with Grangemouth and Dundee.
3. From that direction, a train heading to Dundee would usually avoid Perth as there is a more direct route.

Therefore, I suggest the stopping pattern of this:
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Bishopbriggs - Lenzie - Croy - Larbert - Stirling - Alloa (for Clackmannan as they are really close) - Kincardine
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Croy - Stirling - Alloa - Kincardine - Culross - Rosyth (via new curve) - Inverkeithing - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley
1tph Kincardine - Culross - Rosyth - Inverkeithing - North Queensferry - Dalmeny - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley
and to solve the Grangemouth problem..
3tph Falkirk Grahamston - Grangemouth (operated by a Parry People Mover or a modern 153 of sorts)

Oooo i like this :> imma steal yo ideas cause im a noob

and i dont know rails very well sorry 8'D

maybe like a

1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Bishopbriggs - Lenzie - Croy - Larbert - Stirling - Alloa - Kincardine - Culross - Inverkeithing - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley (stealing your idea )
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Springburn - Stepps - Gartcosh - Greenfaulds - Cumbernauld - Bonnybridge - Larbert - Stirling - Alloa - Kincardine - Rosyth - Inverkeithing - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley

Both Class 385 Operated?

Extend the Milngavie - Cumbernauld To Grangemouth (another stolen idea )
Extend the Glasgow queen street - Falkirk grahamston to Grangemouth

1tph Milngavie - Stations inbetween - Cumbernauld - Bonnybridge - Camelon - Falkirk Grahamston - Grangemouth
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Springburn - Stepps - Gartcosh - Greenfaulds - Cumbernauld - Bonnybridge - Camelon - Falkirk Grahamston - Grangemouth

Operate them with Class 320's.

Maybe Use a Class 230 BEMU for the Grangemouth - Falkirk Journey 2-3 tph. It'll be a hit i hope . or ethier that it'd be really nice seeing a 230

Could a new Curve be created so that Connection with Grangemouth towards the line heading towards edinburgh maybe Help with freight? or a 1tph Service Between Grangemouth - Edinburgh be done?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

It's on the list of routes to be electrified, which is convenient since Kincardine/Longannet was always an ideal spot for a grid feeder and I never liked the prospect of putting a feed in a trough between there and Dunfermline.

Also - avoid circular services, they're brilliant for accumulating delays and a nightmare for recovering lost time.

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

It's on the list of routes to be electrified, which is convenient since Kincardine/Longannet was always an ideal spot for a grid feeder and I never liked the prospect of putting a feed in a trough between there and Dunfermline.

Also - avoid circular services, they're brilliant for accumulating delays and a nightmare for recovering lost time.

Whats a grid feeder :'D . im a big noob when it comes to these things

also if its electrified it should be easy for a 385? , Maybe a good idea to get those extra 385's on Order

also i maybe will learn, they look so good on paper though! xD

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Whats a grid feeder :'D . im a big noob when it comes to these things

also if its electrified it should be easy for a 385? , Maybe a good idea to get those extra 385's on Order , though i have heard of issues with getting the forth road bridge electrified so ... maybe

MAYBE!?

FLIRTS? c i'd LOVE to see those on scotrail networks

Like maybe FLIRTS for the Edinburgh - Glasgow Queen Street Via Kincardine and to replace the 170s on the Edinburgh - Dundee Line

also i maybe will learn, they look so good on paper though! xD

Grid feeder is the electrical equipment which takes electricity from the high voltage grid (132kV, 275kV or less frequently, 400kV) and transforms it into 25kV (or 2x25kV if it's an auto-transformer system) for the overhead electrification system.

Forth Bridge is, despite the incessant rumours to the contrary, not a significant issue technically to electrify. The planning paperwork on the other hand will be rather burdensome.

 

[route101]

Whats a grid feeder :'D . im a big noob when it comes to these things

also if its electrified it should be easy for a 385? , Maybe a good idea to get those extra 385's on Order , though i have heard of issues with getting the forth road bridge electrified so ... maybe

MAYBE!?

FLIRTS? c i'd LOVE to see those on scotrail networks

Like maybe FLIRTS for the Edinburgh - Glasgow Queen Street Via Kincardine and to replace the 170s on the Edinburgh - Dundee Line

also i maybe will learn, they look so good on paper though! xD

Whats a NOOB , i guess your younger?

Would like to see service on line via Kincardine , but wont be fast from Glasgow.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Whats a NOOB , i guess your younger?

NOOB = Newbie?

 

[tetudo boy]

Sorry, this person knows a lot of these Internet slangs called "meme"s. I know what they are, and I've been using them quite often, but I tend to prohibit using them on RailUK Forums unless I post them on my status updates.

Noob: A person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.
XD: An emote to signify extreme laughter.
Heyo: Another saying of "hello".

God, this is embarrassing... As someone who has been endorsed into fan culture, I understand (almost) every "meme", or Internet slag that this person uses. For now, I'll leave this thread alone, since I'm not interested in such thing. Sorry.

 

[route101]

Sorry, this person knows a lot of these Internet slangs called "meme"s. I know what they are, and I've been using them quite often, but I tend to prohibit using them on RailUK Forums unless I post them on my status updates.

Noob: A person who is inexperienced in a particular sphere or activity, especially computing or the use of the Internet.
XD: An emote to signify extreme laughter.
Heyo: Another saying of "hello".

God, this is embarrassing... As someone who has been endorsed into fan culture, I understand (almost) every "meme", or Internet slag that this person uses. For now, I'll leave this thread alone, since I'm not interested in such thing. Sorry.

Learn something new everyday.

 

[318266]

Oooo i like this :> imma steal yo ideas cause im a noob

and i dont know rails very well sorry 8'D

maybe like a

1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Bishopbriggs - Lenzie - Croy - Larbert - Stirling - Alloa - Kincardine - Culross - Inverkeithing - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley (stealing your idea )
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Springburn - Stepps - Gartcosh - Greenfaulds - Cumbernauld - Bonnybridge - Larbert - Stirling - Alloa - Kincardine - Rosyth - Inverkeithing - Edinburgh Gateway - Haymarket - Edinburgh Waverley

Both Class 385 Operated?

Extend the Garscadden - Cumbernauld To Grangemouth (another stolen idea )
Extend the Glasgow queen street - Falkirk grahamston to Grangemouth

1tph Garscadden - Stations inbetween - Cumbernauld - Bonnybridge - Camelon - Falkirk Grahamston - Grangemouth
1tph Glasgow Queen Street - Springburn - Stepps - Gartcosh - Greenfaulds - Cumbernauld - Bonnybridge - Camelon - Falkirk Grahamston - Grangemouth

Operate them with Class 320's.

Maybe Use a Class 230 BEMU for the Grangemouth - Falkirk Journey 2-3 tph. It'll be a hit i hope . or ethier that it'd be really nice seeing a 230

Could a new Curve be created so that Connection with Grangemouth towards the line heading towards edinburgh maybe Help with freight? or a 1tph Service Between Grangemouth - Edinburgh be done?

No services start at Garscadden that go to Cumbernauld except some in the very early morning running from Yoker CS, which would go via Motherwell. All others have terminated at Springburn since December 2018.
Glasgow Queen Street to Grangemouth was feasible until they extended the Glasgow to Falkirk service down to Edinburgh back in December 2018, hence why it would be easier just have a Grangemouth shuttle.
The once-daily Glasgow Queen Street to Falkirk Grahamston via Croy service could be extended as a one-off and maybe the current late-night Falkirk terminating services could go to Grangemouth instead as well, all replacing some shuttle services. Also the Class 320s are ageing so it would probably be new build units.

 

[reb0118]

My humble suggestion with unlimited stock availability would be as follows:-

1) Switch one of the Glasgow QS [GLQ] to Edinburgh [EDB] via Falkirk Grahamston [FKG] to terminate at Grangemouth. You still have a half hourly service from GLQ & FKG.

2) Switch one of the EDB to GLQ via FKG to Kincardine. Still maintaining a half hourly stopping service to FKG & restoring an hourly stopping service from EDB to Stirling [STG], & vastly improving the EDB to Alloa [ALO] service. Ensure that the Grangemouth to GLQ train is timetabled to run shortly afterwards to maintain the current service provision.

3) Introduce a Grangemouth to STG/Dunblane [DBL] local stopping service and remove more stops from the EDB to DBL expresses (e.g. CMO & LBT).

4) And this is the important part - vastly improve FKG station. Make it a worthy interchange station. Make it fully barriered to keep the non paying jaikies out. Improve the waiting areas & introduce a nice café or lounge.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

You'll also need to include Levenmouth in any plans for the route.

 

[Clansman]

My humble suggestion with unlimited stock availability would be as follows:-

1) Switch one of the Glasgow QS [GLQ] to Edinburgh [EDB] via Falkirk Grahamston [FKG] to terminate at Grangemouth. You still have a half hourly service from GLQ & FKG.

2) Switch one of the EDB to GLQ via FKG to Kincardine. Still maintaining a half hourly stopping service to FKG & restoring an hourly stopping service from EDB to Stirling [STG], & vastly improving the EDB to Alloa [ALO] service. Ensure that the Grangemouth to GLQ train is timetabled to run shortly afterwards to maintain the current service provision.

3) Introduce a Grangemouth to STG/Dunblane [DBL] local stopping service and remove more stops from the EDB to DBL expresses (e.g. CMO & LBT).

4) And this is the important part - vastly improve FKG station. Make it a worthy interchange station. Make it fully barriered to keep the non paying jaikies out. Improve the waiting areas & introduce a nice café or lounge.

Agree with the first point, but doesn't the rest sound a little over complicated, or in the region of nice-to-have?

At a bare minimum, say a reopened Grangemouth with a chord and potential station at Laurieston, it'd be far simpler doing as you suggest initially and absorb it into the current Cumbernauld service path. Ie say the current 2tph QS-EDB via Noddy, reduced to 1tph, then the alternate half hour, split the current diagram, such that 1tph runs QS-Grangemouth and 1tph Grangemouth to Edinburgh to fulfill the current timetable - and vice versa. No major timetabling requirements needed other than additional 385 during the peaks (potential Cathcart/Inverclyde cascades) given it already uses existing paths.

Also, is there really much demand that would justify a central belt local such as Grangemouth to Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa? It would only exist to serve the good people of Grangemouth directly, really, I'm sure ommitting Camelon from a direct link to Edinburgh (and Larbert's entirely!) wouldn't be seen to be worth the additional 2-5 minute savings - not least from the good people of Larbert! The timetable currently has ~10 minutes between QS-EDB via Noddy services and EDB-Stirling services at Grahamston, which, as far as introducing services concerns, is a decent place to start for Grangemouth in general at bare minimum?

 

[railjock]

Agree with the first point, but doesn't the rest sound a little over complicated, or in the region of nice-to-have?

At a bare minimum, say a reopened Grangemouth with a chord and potential station at Laurieston, it'd be far simpler doing as you suggest initially and absorb it into the current Cumbernauld service path. Ie say the current 2tph QS-EDB via Noddy, reduced to 1tph, then the alternate half hour, split the current diagram, such that 1tph runs QS-Grangemouth and 1tph Grangemouth to Edinburgh to fulfill the current timetable - and vice versa. No major timetabling requirements needed other than additional 385 during the peaks (potential Cathcart/Inverclyde cascades) given it already uses existing paths.

Also, is there really much demand that would justify a central belt local such as Grangemouth to Stirling/Dunblane/Alloa? It would only exist to serve the good people of Grangemouth directly, really, I'm sure ommitting Camelon from a direct link to Edinburgh (and Larbert's entirely!) wouldn't be seen to be worth the additional 2-5 minute savings - not least from the good people of Larbert! The timetable currently has ~10 minutes between QS-EDB via Noddy services and EDB-Stirling services at Grahamston, which, as far as introducing services concerns, is a decent place to start for Grangemouth in general at bare minimum?

The reality of services in the Scottish central belt is that if they don’t end up in, or pass through, Edinburgh or Glasgow they will very likely be unviable. Those are the constraints that need to be taken into account.

 

[adrock1976]

On the subject of Grangemouth, I have come up with a suggested Taktplan for the Forth Valley region, which features Grangemouth and the Stirling - Dunfermline line.

See: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...h-stirling-dunfermline-and-levenmouth.208342/

 

[PYROOGOBBO]

Hmmm

How about extending the Milngavie - Cumbernauld Service to stop at Grangemouth?. Or any service that connects glasgow that terminates at Cumbernauld. With the extended service you could maybe add on Bonnybridge.
Or a new service that Connects Grangemouth - Glasgow, And Glasgow Suburbs, Motherwell. etc

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then with the Kincardine line open? Maybe open up another Edinburgh - Glasgow line, Via Stirling, Cumbernauld and Fife

this can replace the Glasgow Queen Street - Alloa service.

This can give, Extra direct connections for Robroyston And Cumbernauld To glasgow, (Queen Street), Also Allowing a direct train from Alloa/Clackmannanshire to Edinburgh, And connections to the new Talgo factory

Also as we seen with the Polmont line damage, Edinburgh gets pretty cut off from Forth valley residents (Larbert, Falkirk, Stirling). If the Edinburgh - Glasgow via falkirk high line gets closed due to rain, So a bit of Redundancy with the Kincardine line would be pretty good.

This could be served with an extra order of 385's or maybe bring back the 365's if there isnt enough 385's. If during electrification, could it be served with 170's or 158's?, or heck even a HST Short set?

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If maybe too far?

Open the kincardine line and introduce a new, Edinburgh - Stirling service via Fife and Kincardine

This should maybe take a little load off of the Edinburgh - Stirling Via Falkirk grahamston Service

Thus allowing the Edinburgh - Stirling via falkirk grahamston service to return to calling at Polmont and Linlithgow.
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