New routes for sleeper trains

[mike57]

HS2 will likely kill of the Lowland Sleeper.

When (or if?) HS2 gets to Euston

 

[NSE]

When (or if?) HS2 gets to Euston

True. Tbh, I think it would only take one or two even earlier departures to make a significant impact on the lowland sleeper.

 

[mike57]

True. Tbh, I think it would only take one or two even earlier departures to make a significant impact on the lowland sleeper.

The current ealiest departure is 05:30 from Euston arriving 10:42, and 04:28 from Glasgow arriving 09:12. an 09:12 arrival into London looks OK to me, however the first arrival into Glasgow at 10:42 really needs to be a lot earlier, and the journey time of 5h 11m is poor compared with other services. You would need a 04:30 ish departure with the same timing as say the 07:30.

 

[JonathanH]

Equally, Birmingham to Scotland is a big market. That’s undeniable. It’s a fact.

The fact that Avanti have elected to have two hour gaps in the pattern of through services between Birmingham and Scotland suggests that the market does have some limitations.

 

[Sorcerer]

Domestically I can't think of many sleeper routes, but if proper coaching stock was available I do think it's worth talking about the idea of continental sleepers via the Channel Tunnel. London to Geneva has been talked about as a future route for regular cross-channel traffic but it seems like it'd be better as an overnight journey for people travelling to the continent but don't like flying or don't want the expenses of booking a hotel that could be a fair distance from their destination. Waking up and arriving in the city centre would be more ideal. Obviously you will have a question of suitable stock but if we want to reduce short-haul flights then continental sleeper services should be considered. I think a market exists for those kind of services.

 

[paul1609]

Surely it would route via the WCML from Birmingham?. At present, those in the south west only really have a choice of flying if going to Scotland, and vice versa for Scotland to South west travellers. The XC journeys are so ridiculously long, overcrowded and overpriced. A more realistic alternative to a sleeper, would be some kind of daytime service from the south west to Scotland via the WCML calling only at principal places, say Plymouth , Bristol, Birmingham, Crewe, Preston, Carlisle , Edinburgh for example. (Other calling patterns are available). Again, I know this has been discussed before and won't happen, but then we do not live in a country serious about removing internal flights. Perhaps things will change in coming years, one can but hope.

I'd suggest that if you wanted a sleeper service from the Southwest to Scotland at minimum loss it would start from Exeter, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Reading, London Ealing Broadway, Luton Airport Parkway, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh. You'd need to avoid stopping at places that could never justify it and stick to major interchange points.

 

[The Planner]

I'd suggest that if you wanted a sleeper service from the Southwest to Scotland at minimum loss it would start from Exeter, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Reading, London Ealing Broadway, Luton Airport Parkway, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh. You'd need to avoid stopping at places that could never justify it and stick to major interchange points.

At what unearthly hour would this be calling at Luton, Leicester, East Mids etc?

 

[HSTEd]

What time would a Southwest sleeper have to leave to meet the Lowland SLeeper at Crewe or similar calling point?

 

[peterblue]

Probably best skipping Birmingham and doing Edinburgh-Newcastle-Leeds-Manchester arriving Manchester at about 2300-0000 then slow overnight to Bristol, then carrying onto somewhere southwest (Plymouth?) by around 0900-1000.

I don't think this is viable but this is probably as close as it gets to viable.

For e.g. Bristol to Scotland you can take an easyjet flight and be there much quicker, and probably cheaper too.

 

[NSE]

The current ealiest departure is 05:30 from Euston arriving 10:42, and 04:28 from Glasgow arriving 09:12. an 09:12 arrival into London looks OK to me, however the first arrival into Glasgow at 10:42 really needs to be a lot earlier, and the journey time of 5h 11m is poor compared with other services. You would need a 04:30 ish departure with the same timing as say the 07:30.

If you could have a 0430 from Euston and arrive for 09:42 into Glasgow. Especially if you tightened it up as you say. I think that would sway some customers.

The fact that Avanti have elected to have two hour gaps in the pattern of through services between Birmingham and Scotland suggests that the market does have some limitations.

No, I agree, and one of the limitations is its customer bases wanting to join a sleeper train at 0130/0230 in the morning. Those timings are not going to attract users despite there being a healthy market.

 

[peterblue]

If you could have a 0430 from Euston and arrive for 09:42 into Glasgow. Especially if you tightened it up as you say. I think that would sway some customers.

No, I agree, and one of the limitations is its customer bases wanting to join a sleeper train at 0130/0230 in the morning. Those timings are not going to attract users despite there being a healthy market.

How many people would want to catch a train at 0430 from Euston?

 

[stuu]

For e.g. Bristol to Scotland you can take an easyjet flight and be there much quicker, and probably cheaper too.

When I needed to get to Newcastle last year, from my house in Taunton, it was quicker to catch the bus to Bristol Airport, faff around with security etc, fly to Newcastle and catch the metro into the city than go on the direct train.

And a third of the cost

 

[irish_rail]

I'd suggest that if you wanted a sleeper service from the Southwest to Scotland at minimum loss it would start from Exeter, Tiverton Parkway, Taunton, Bristol Parkway, Swindon, Reading, London Ealing Broadway, Luton Airport Parkway, Leicester, East Midlands Parkway, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle, Edinburgh. You'd need to avoid stopping at places that could never justify it and stick to major interchange points.

So you'd miss out the biggest city in the south west (Plymouth). For what benefit? Surely stock would need to be based at Laira, as no room at Exeter, so I think it goes without saying any south west sleeper would serve Plymouth!

 

[Bald Rick]

Equally, Birmingham to Scotland is a big market. That’s undeniable. It’s a fact.

It isn’t, at all, compared to London - Scotland.

Theres 4 or 5 flights a day from Birmingham to the central belt compared to around 60 from London to the Central belt.

Train wise there’s 20 a day Birmingham - Central belt, and 55 trains Londonto the central belt, one of which is the sleeper (excluding the highlander for obvious reasons), d some of which overlap with those from Birmingham .

How many people would want to catch a train at 0430 from Euston?

Probably a similar number to those who want to be at Heathrow at 0430/0500 for the first flights to Glasgow / Edinburgh.

 

[Iskra]

The fact that Avanti have elected to have two hour gaps in the pattern of through services between Birmingham and Scotland suggests that the market does have some limitations.

Or the operator does, in terms of its available staff.

 

[Ken H]

I would use a yorkshire - Cheriton service. The horrid drive down the M1, round the M25 then through Kent put me off. But it would need to take my car too. Motorail sleepers anyone?

 

[NSE]

It isn’t, at all, compared to London - Scotland.

Theres 4 or 5 flights a day from Birmingham to the central belt compared to around 60 from London to the Central belt.

Train wise there’s 20 a day Birmingham - Central belt, and 55 trains Londonto the central belt, one of which is the sleeper (excluding the highlander for obvious reasons), d some of which overlap with those from Birmingham.

Ok, maybe I worded it wrong. It’s a market that’s my point. But just because it’s a market doesn’t mean it justifies a sleeper. The person I was replying to was advocating for a sleeper stopping at around 0130/0230, my point is there is a market for Birmingham/Scotland but one that’s adequately covered during the day and won’t be attracted to such inconvenient times such as 0130 etc

 

[30907]

What time would a Southwest sleeper have to leave to meet the Lowland SLeeper at Crewe or similar calling point?

The answer is 0230/0430, so say 2300/0800 Bristol, 2030/1030 Plymouth.
If the Lowlander lost traffic enough to create spare capacity, that might be a possible use for it - but the route is largely unelectrified, and it wouldn't be an efficient use of a bi-mode loco, and a 73/9 isn't exactly environmentally friendly.
And GW might put in a bid for the spare sleepers anyway.

 

[zwk500]

Indeed, but Manchester to Bristol are unfortunately worth serving so they should be served at reasonable times

There's a 7am Bristol to Manchester XC that gets in shortly after 10am. You can have your own bed and make a bacon sandwich at home before an easy trip to the station because the roads are still empty. Much, much more attractive to the customer than a sleeper that parks up at New Street for 4 hours, and much more cost-efficient for the operators.

The only way I could see a SW-Scotland sleeper even vaguely happening would be a Cardiff-Glasgow via the ECML using electric traction, calling Bristol Parkway, Reading, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow. And it'd still require twice as much subsidy as the Caledonian. At least. If Filton Bank ever got wired you could divert it to Temple Meads (with a runround to eat a bit of time) and Bath, and when (if) Leeds-York gets wired you could trade the York stop for Leeds. But it'll still be awkward times or require a long stand somewhere in the middle of the night, and be extremely inefficient on stock and crew, and of course would be even harder to manage diversionary routes for.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ok, maybe I worded it wrong. It’s a market that’s my point. But just because it’s a market doesn’t mean it justifies a sleeper. The person I was replying to was advocating for a sleeper stopping at around 0130/0230, my point is there is a market for Birmingham/Scotland but one that’s adequately covered during the day and won’t be attracted to such inconvenient times such as 0130 etc

Quite right.

Having looked at Birmingham - Scotland today for some family members, the prospect of anything more than 10-20 people doing the journey each night in the beds is fantasy, and that could be covered by diverting the existing sleeper, were it not lsrgely full already with people paying more from London.

The only way I could see a SW-Scotland sleeper even vaguely happening would be a Cardiff-Glasgow via the ECML using electric traction, calling Bristol Parkway, Reading, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow. And it'd still require twice as much subsidy as the Caledonian. At least.

“At least“ being the operative word. Given the traffic that would use it, I reckon 5 times the subsidy if you’re lucky.

 

[Bill57p9]

Ok, so not quite a new route per se, however I would suggest through ticketing to open up feeder routes to the existing operation. That said, CS do not seem to have an issue filling their berths.

How many people would want to catch a train at 0430 from Euston?

How many people catch the 0430 to Euston from Glasgow?

 

[Cowley]

Thread reopened for @JamieL to add to.

 

[JamieL]

Thanks Cowley.

I am a semi-regular user of the Caledonian Sleeper and can't rate the service highly enough. It is very time efficient and, within the bounds of the railway, reliable for end-to-end travel. My only gripe is I am a regular traveller between Bristol and Scotland so that relies on me getting a GWR into Paddington and then walking or tubing into London. A SW to Scotland Sleeper would be fantastic.

Rather than some of the suggestions above, how about a SW sleeper that merges with the Lowlander? Something like this:

1600 Penzance
1800 Plymouth
1900 Exeter St David's
2000 Bristol Temple Meads
2200 Birmingham
0400 Split at Carstairs and combine with Lowlander portions
0700 Arrive Glasgow and Edinburgh

...and on the return it splits with Lowlander and the SW portions combine at Carstairs with the morning stops as:

0600 Birmingham
0800 Bristol Temple Meads
0900 Exeter St David's
1000 Plymouth
1200 Penzance

Timings like this would work well for business travellers and tourists alike. The combined catchment areas of Cornwall, Plymouth, Exeter, Bristol and Birmingham would offer a huge potential market. Perhaps adding a few more seated carriages would even suppress the necessary subsidy? How about:
1 x Dining Car
4 x Seated Coaches
5 x Sleeping Coaches

Of course it won't happen because the rolling stock isn't available and the sleepers already attract a very heavy subsidy. But it would be an amazing public service and one I bet would be well used if pricing matched the current CS offering.

 

[172007]

Thanks Cowley.

I am a semi-regular user of the Caledonian Sleeper and can't rate the service highly enough. It is very time efficient and, within the bounds of the railway, reliable for end-to-end travel. My only gripe is I am a regular traveller between Bristol and Scotland so that relies on me getting a GWR into Paddington and then walking or tubing into London. A SW to Scotland Sleeper would be fantastic.

Rather than some of the suggestions above, how about a SW sleeper that merges with the Lowlander? Something like this:

1600 Penzance
1800 Plymouth
1900 Exeter St David's
2000 Bristol Temple Meads
2200 Birmingham
0400 Split at Carstairs and combine with Lowlander portions
0700 Arrive Glasgow and Edinburgh

...and on the return it splits with Lowlander and the SW portions combine at Carstairs with the morning stops as:

0600 Birmingham
0800 Bristol Temple Meads
0900 Exeter St David's
1000 Plymouth
1200 Penzance

Timings like this would work well for business travellers and tourists alike. The combined catchment areas of Cornwall, Plymouth, Exeter, Bristol and Birmingham would offer a huge potential market. Perhaps adding a few more seated carriages would even suppress the necessary subsidy? How about:
1 x Dining Car
4 x Seated Coaches
5 x Sleeping Coaches

Of course it won't happen because the rolling stock isn't available and the sleepers already attract a very heavy subsidy. But it would be an amazing public service and one I bet would be well used if pricing matched the current CS offering.

Always wondered whether if a new set of MK5a's were built weather such a route should have a longer train than what you suggest and has a dedicated luggage coach. Service splits and at Plymouth coach runs to Newquay with half the train. Luggage coach has the surf boards.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I read somewhere recently that CS are proposing a pick-up stop for the Highland sleeper at Birmingham International northbound departing around 22:40. The routeing would be Rugby-Coventry-International-Stechford, Aston then the Grand Junction to Stafford then as booked. The "U"-stop would replace the current pathing stop at Brinklow to follow 1H45. With a fair wind it might just reach Stafford Trent Valley Junction at 23/16 to slot between 1K84 and 4S88 as at present.

 

[Bald Rick]

Thanks Cowley.

I am a semi-regular user of the Caledonian Sleeper and can't rate the service highly enough. It is very time efficient and, within the bounds of the railway, reliable for end-to-end travel. My only gripe is I am a regular traveller between Bristol and Scotland so that relies on me getting a GWR into Paddington and then walking or tubing into London. A SW to Scotland Sleeper would be fantastic.

Rather than some of the suggestions above, how about a SW sleeper that merges with the Lowlander? Something like this:

1600 Penzance
1800 Plymouth
1900 Exeter St David's
2000 Bristol Temple Meads
2200 Birmingham
0400 Split at Carstairs and combine with Lowlander portions
0700 Arrive Glasgow and Edinburgh

...and on the return it splits with Lowlander and the SW portions combine at Carstairs with the morning stops as:

0600 Birmingham
0800 Bristol Temple Meads
0900 Exeter St David's
1000 Plymouth
1200 Penzance

Timings like this would work well for business travellers and tourists alike. The combined catchment areas of Cornwall, Plymouth, Exeter, Bristol and Birmingham would offer a huge potential market. Perhaps adding a few more seated carriages would even suppress the necessary subsidy? How about:
1 x Dining Car
4 x Seated Coaches
5 x Sleeping Coaches

Of course it won't happen because the rolling stock isn't available and the sleepers already attract a very heavy subsidy. But it would be an amazing public service and one I bet would be well used if pricing matched the current CS offering.

I‘ve just tried to work out the Shunting for such a service at Carstairs.

I can’t see it taking less than an hour, with both platforms occupied for most of that. That would extend journey times for the existing lowlander, and also cause issues for other traffic, especially in the event of any late running.

It would also need the SW portions to be short - prob 4 coaches each. Of course that would be plenty for the traffic that would use it even with very heavily subsidised fares.

 

[JamieL]

I‘ve just tried to work out the Shunting for such a service at Carstairs.

I can’t see it taking less than an hour, with both platforms occupied for most of that. That would extend journey times for the existing lowlander, and also cause issues for other traffic, especially in the event of any late running.

It would also need the SW portions to be short - prob 4 coaches each. Of course that would be plenty for the traffic that would use it even with very heavily subsidised fares.

It is interesting that you don't think it would be popular. Why not?

Good comments on Carstairs. Perhaps the split and combine could take place elsewhere. Any viable options between Birmingham and Carstairs?

 

[30907]

Good comments on Carstairs. Perhaps the split and combine could take place elsewhere. Any viable options between Birmingham and Carstairs?

If two trains are being run north of Stafford, then the Nightjet-style swap could happen at Carlisle, Preston or Crewe.

Your proposal wouldn't allow time for servicing at Penzance, though. You have allowed for 3hr padding en route northbound, so you could run a couple of hours later which might solve that.
However, Birmingham-Scotland is realistically not going to compete with day trains/air anyway, so why not do the shunt at Crewe, change locos there and run via Cardiff (to keep the Senedd happy) or more realistically Newport(Gwent) to Bristol and the SW.

Not that I think it would improve the economics enough to persuade Holyrood and Cardiff to subsidise it

 

[Bald Rick]

It is interesting that you don't think it would be popular. Why not?

I explained this in another thread. The market from west of England+ S Wales - central belt isn’t anywhere big enough, it‘s rather less than a fifth of London - central belt, and without the big tourist potential that supports the CS for most of the year.

 

[Harpo]

Sleepers worked for those going to work or when there were left luggage locations. Now, an early morning arrival in a big city with a big suitcase is a faff.