New Routeing Guide...

[mark_hammond75]

There's a new routeing guide on ATOCs website, updated on 16/10/2009... So if you're using 'creative' routes, you might want to check that they are still valid.

They seem to have cut out the route via Southampton for London to Newport / Cardiff etc. This may be in an attempt to prove that SWT were 'correct' not to issue me with my TBD-NWP ticket at Southampton (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22516), but I find it quite strange as it's not that much of a foolish route.

Also, NRE still brings up LON-NWP via SOU quite happily.

I remeber someone mentioning that ATOC needed some sort of permission from the Department for Transport (or something like that) when removing sensible routes (i.e. not simply fixing errors)- so what's the crack here then?

 

[embers25]

So they tried to fix Woking to Reading and Woking to Slough and screwed both up!!!!
Woking to Reading is now only valid via Guildford and not via Basingstoke or via Clapham+Staines
Woking to Slough only valid via Clapham+Staines to reach Reading and not via Basingstoke or Guildford!

Also, while the shortest route will permit route Woking-Weybridge-Staines-Windsor-Slough it will not permit Woking-Weybridge-Chertsey-Staines-Reading-Slough despite permitting Woking-Weybridge-Clapham-Staines-Reading-Slough!!!!!

So despite 3 months of emails and numerous suggestions for solutions ATOC create a new map (RG!) and still get it very wrong!!! More to the point RJIS still recommends Basingstoke as does Nationrail.co.uk and this is totally invalid as its more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.

Also Woking to Chippenham is still valid route Woking-Yeovil J-Exeter-Bristol-Swindon-Chippenham!

 

[John @ home]

There's a new routeing guide on ATOCs website, updated on 16/10/2009

Yes, one of ATOC's more spectacularly incompetent efforts! One of the changes is:

Map FK replaces Map ER
This change applies to the following flows:
Aberdeen - Darlington
Edinburgh Group - Darlington
Falkirk Group - Darlington
Inverkeithing Group - Darlington
Kirkcaldy Group - Darlington
Ladybank - Darlington
Perth - Darlington (but NE is also valid)
Stirling - Darlington

Taking Aberdeen - Darlington for example, the effect is:
Sep 2009 ER allowed: Aberdeen - Dundee - Ladybank. Then Ladybank - Edinburgh by 40 routes. Edinburgh - Newcastle. Then Newcastle - Darlington by 5 routes. 200 routes
Oct 2009 FK allows: Aberdeen - Dundee - Ladybank - Kirkcaldy - Inverkeithing - Edinburgh - Newcastle - Durham or Middlesbrough or Eaglescliffe avoiding Middlesbrough - Darlington. 3 routes.
197 Aberdeen - Darlington routes lost.

Aberdeen - Middlesbrough Group is omitted from Oct 2009 Guide.
History:
Sep 2009 Guide: ER
Aug 2009 Guide: ER
Presumably in the absence of any current routeing, the routeing in previous Guides must apply.

But an Aberdeen - Darlington ticket is valid via Middlesbrough. And an Aberdeen - Middlesbrough ticket is valid via Darlington. And the walk-on fares are identical (with the exception of the £98.50 SOS to Middlesbrough only which no-one need ever buy because there is a £96 SVS which is valid on every train and available for break of journey). So anyone who wants to travel on one of the 197 deleted Aberdeen - Darlington routes need only buy an Aberdeen - Middlesbrough ticket.

John

 

[embers25]

lol ok you've got me beat!!!! ATOC have removed loads of route options from Woking resulting in many fares being valid via totally different routes depending on the final destination, despite those stations being next to each other. It seems like they are obsessed (they even sent me an email telling me this) with adding routes allowing the Clapham-Kensington-Hayes+Harlington route despite the fact no trains run that way anyway (until Southern allegedly start soon). Also they still haven't fixed the map with the floating Hayes+Harlington station that is not connected to anywhere!!!! Oh and in case you were wondering I raised the Woking-Slough and Woking-Reading situation with DfT and got the response that ATOC are doing a great job and that the routes in the guide were definitive and correct in this gentlemens view!!!!! It's great to know those monitoring ATOC don't have a clue too...the blind leading the blind!!! Surely there is someone we can contact to raise this to a higher level. I tried Watchdog but they weren't interested. Passenger Focus were a great help in getting me my refunds but this situation should not be allowed to go on. Why are ATOC not publicly accountable???

 

[John @ home]

Woking to Slough only valid via Clapham+Staines to reach Reading and not via Basingstoke or Guildford!

Also, while the shortest route will permit route Woking-Weybridge-Staines-Windsor-Slough it will not permit Woking-Weybridge-Chertsey-Staines-Reading-Slough despite permitting Woking-Weybridge-Clapham-Staines-Reading-Slough!!!!!

I don't think there's a rule which requires a passenger to walk between stations as part of a shortest route.

Journeys on direct trains or taking the route of shortest distance or a distance longer by no more than 3 miles are always following a permitted route.
http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide/nrg_detail.pdf

There is no service by rail between Windsor & Eton Central and Windsor & Eton Riverside, so that cannot be part of the shortest route as defined in the guide. I believe the distances for the four routes mentioned are:

Woking - (20.25) - Clapham Jn (T155)
Clapham Jn - (39.5) - Reading (T149)
Reading - (17.5) - Slough (T116)
Total 77.25 miles

Woking - (5.25) - Weybridge (T155)
Weybridge - (5.75) - Virginia Water (T149)
Virignia Water - (20.25) - Reading (T149)
Reading - (17.5) - Slough (T116)
Total 48.75 miles

Woking - (23.5) - Basingstoke (T155)
Basingstoke - (20.25) - Reading (T149)
Reading - (17.5) - Slough (T116)
Total 61.25 miles

Woking - (3.75) - Guildford (T155)
Guildford - (25.75) - Reading (T149)
Reading - (17.5) - Slough (T116)
Total 47.5 miles

If these calculations are right, route Guildford + Reading is valid because it's the shortest route by rail. Route Virginia Water + Reading is valid because it's not more than 3 miles longer. Route Clapham + Richmond/Brentford is valid by maps RG+WX. Route Basingstoke + Reading is not valid.

John

 

[embers25]

You'd think walking wasn't counted but it is. For example stations Crewkerne to Pinhoe travelling to stations between Yeovil Pen Mill and Weymouth (actually all stations from Bournemouth to Weymouth inclusive as well) are expected to walk the 2 miles across Yeovil to get the cheapest (sometimes only) fare and thus this is the shortest route.

The shortest route (and all below are sometimes given on nationalrail) is

Woking-Weybridge-Staines-Windsor R-walk-Windsor C-Slough at 5.25+5.75+6.75+2.75=20.50 as it has its own fare too.

The next shortest is
Woking-Farnboro M-walk-Farnboro N-Reading-Slough at 9+15.5+17.5=42

Then
Woking-Ash Vale-walk-North Camp-Reading-Slough at 8.25+17.5+17.5=43.25

and then the ones you quote. Thus making all the ones you quote invalid except the one specifically in the routing guide.

It is crazy I agree but ATOC confirm that walking is considered an option in routing and that the walking mileage does not count in the distance.

 

[LondonLarry]

You'd think walking wasn't counted but it is. For example stations Crewkerne to Pinhoe travelling to stations between Yeovil Pen Mill and Weymouth (actually all stations from Bournemouth to Weymouth inclusive as well) are expected to walk the 2 miles across Yeovil to get the cheapest (sometimes only) fare and thus this is the shortest route.

You're not 'expected' to walk, but you do need to arange your own transportation, probably by taxi. Alternatively, there is the route 31 bus between Axminster and Dorchester South/Weymouth stations.

 

[mark_hammond75]

Do operators get a share of ticket prices if they operate services on a 'permitted route' for a flow? Or does the operator who sets the price flow get the whole chunk?

If the fares are shared out, then surely changes to the Routeing Guide would need to be reflected in the proportion of revenue that is awarded to operators. In the LON-NWP example if SWT were getting a share of the revenue for the flow surely this will need to be re-assessed?

 

[LondonLarry]

The amount each TOC receives for a particular ticket is normally allocated through ORCATS. This uses various criteria such as journey time and number of changes to work out an allocation a TOC receives. e.g. TOC A runs a train from London to Newport in 2hrs. They will receive significantly more money than TOC B which runs a direct trains taking 4hrs or TOC C which only runs between London and Reading.

There were two routes: Any Permitted and Warminster/Salisbury, although the latter appears to have dropped from the system.

On an Off Peak Return, route Any Permitted, FGW will receive nearly all the money as they operate a fast, direct service.

On an Off Peak Return, route Warminster/Salisbury, FGW and SWT will probably receive an even share. The route Warminster/Salisbury ticket is designed for use from Waterloo to Salisbury with SWT. From Salisbury to Newport, your only real option is to use FGW's direct service.