New Regional Trains for EMR

[Bartsimho]

After the discussion about EMR services being crowded and the regional services being particularly bad at times with 2-car sets running. What would be the replacement for them as most of the fleet is fairly old already having:
9 Class 156's (1987-1989)
26 Class 158's (1989-1990)
30 Class 170's (1998-2005)
21 Class 360's (2002-2005)

Looking at those dates its only the Class 156 and Class 158's which are really due a replacement soon and they are all DMU's but do run routes under some OLE 25Kv's but need to be under Sprinter classifications as well.
You could argue the Class 170's are also up for renewal as well being 18-25 years old now

What I would hope happens is a train with the level boarding capabilities like to Class 755 and 745's with a top speed of like 110mph in a 5 car set as standard. If they were 5 car standards I don't think there would be an issue with the capacity although it could have some Platform length issues in places like Nottingham to Lincoln

 

[Energy]

Current plan is get all the 170s they can (still awaiting the TfW ones), they still have enough life left. Some 158s might remain, they were expecting to loose the Norwich to Liverpool service.

The 360s are perfect for EMR if they were maintained better by Greater Anglia, 21 4 car gives 7 12 cars which is perfect for the 6 needed with 3 sets left for maintanence.

 

[Bartsimho]

Current plan is get all the 170s they can (still awaiting the TfW ones), they still have enough life left. Some 158s might remain, they were expecting to loose the Norwich to Liverpool service.

The 360s are perfect for EMR if they were maintained better by Greater Anglia, 21 4 car gives 7 12 cars which is perfect for the 6 needed with 3 sets left for maintanence.

The 360's are just EMU's aren't they so a bit difficult to utilise elsewhere. Although they do expect to lose to Norwich-Liverpool service this is due to it splitting into 2 services with them still running Norwich-Sheffield so they need the Sprinter classification for around Thetford and Ely.
Maybe a refurb of the interiors of the 170's would do although the 170's don't have walkthrough and are maximum 3 cars which wouldn't work capacity wise on quite a few stretches.

 

[Energy]

The 360's are just EMU's aren't they so a bit difficult to utilise elsewhere.

They could find use elsewhere (with the 350/2s at LNWR would be preferable to 730s...) but they fit perfectly at EMR and are only half way through their life so why replace them. They just need a decent refurbishment.

Maybe a refurb of the interiors of the 170's would do although the 170's don't have walkthrough and are maximum 3 cars which wouldn't work capacity wise on quite a few stretches.

A 170 (and 360) refurb was planned. Then covid happened. 170s run as 5/6 cars just fine coupled together.

 

[JonathanH]

You could argue the Class 170's are also up for renewal as well being 18-25 years old now

The 170s aren't, by any stretch of the imagination, up for renewal. Another 10 to 15 years could easily be imagined.

One possibility is the 158s running on until spare 170s become available from Scotland, and EMR becoming solely 170 from that point. In due course, the 170s might then be replaced by cascaded 196s or 197s if electrification happens elsewhere.

 

[dk1]

The 360's are just EMU's aren't they so a bit difficult to utilise elsewhere. Although they do expect to lose to Norwich-Liverpool service this is due to it splitting into 2 services with them still running Norwich-Sheffield so they need the Sprinter classification for around Thetford and Ely.
Maybe a refurb of the interiors of the 170's would do although the 170's don't have walkthrough and are maximum 3 cars which wouldn't work capacity wise on quite a few stretches.

Thought the split had been put on the back burner or abandoned altogether. 158s planned to be the mainstay of the Norwich-Liverpool for the foreseeable future with a possible refresh.

 

[DDB]

EMR's orginal plan and bid was to have an all 170 regional fleet. They were also bidding on the basis that the Liverpool Norwich would be split and they wouldn't be operating Nottingham to Liverpool.

Lots has happened since then including the end of Franchises as we know it, difficulties getting the 170s released and the decision not to split Liverpool Norwich meaning they need more trains than expected.

I belive the new plan is to keep 158s for the Liverpool Norwich with 170s for everything else but presumably all at the whim of Government.

By the time they NEED replacing, hopefully the main line will have been wired so some services might be suitable for some sort of hybrid especially with 10? more years of technology development.

 

[Brubulus]

The 170s aren't, by any stretch of the imagination, up for renewal. Another 10 to 15 years could easily be imagined.

One possibility is the 158s running on until spare 170s become available from Scotland, and EMR becoming solely 170 from that point. In due course, the 170s might then be replaced by cascaded 196s or 197s if electrification happens elsewhere.

There aren't going to be any spares from Scotland as 170s will be cascaded once Fife is electrified to replace 156s and 158s. Northern has 16 3 car units that would ease the shortage significantly.

 

[py_megapixel]

EMR's orginal plan and bid was to have an all 170 regional fleet. They were also bidding on the basis that the Liverpool Norwich would be split and they wouldn't be operating Nottingham to Liverpool.

Lots has happened since then including the end of Franchises as we know it, difficulties getting the 170s released and the decision not to split Liverpool Norwich meaning they need more trains than expected.

I belive the new plan is to keep 158s for the Liverpool Norwich with 170s for everything else but presumably all at the whim of Government.

By the time they NEED replacing, hopefully the main line will have been wired so some services might be suitable for some sort of hybrid especially with 10? more years of technology development.

I wonder if they might be able to lease enough 158s to strengthen all the Liverpool-Nottingham diagrams to 6 cars. The route is known for overcrowding. The obvious candidates are the TfW units - replacements on order and already fitted out internally to a similar standard to the existing East Midlands fleet.

 

[RobShipway]

The 170s aren't, by any stretch of the imagination, up for renewal. Another 10 to 15 years could easily be imagined.

One possibility is the 158s running on until spare 170s become available from Scotland, and EMR becoming solely 170 from that point. In due course, the 170s might then be replaced by cascaded 196s or 197s if electrification happens elsewhere.

The class 170 units for EMR will as they are, will be coming from West Midland Trains and Transport for Wales. Other than that, I do not see any other operator giving up their class 170 units. The only way that Northern would give up their 16 Class 170 units, would be if they had four car versions of the class 196 built or where having to cut services in some way, to then be using a reduced fleet.

If replacement was an option for the class 156/158 fleet you would want something that can run on overhead electrical line or 3rd rail DC, but could also be powered by diesel initially to then be replaced by battery or other non polluting form of power. A good example of this is the Stadler Flirt class 756 train https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_756

However, I cannot see the Government allowing for procurement of new trains over the next 3 years due to costs rising in other areas. Since the last general election was in 2019, we will have to wait and see if there is a General Election next year and then see what that new Government brings in the way of changes to the railway.

I wonder if they might be able to lease enough 158s to strengthen all the Liverpool-Nottingham diagrams to 6 cars. The route is known for overcrowding. The obvious candidates are the TfW units - replacements on order and already fitted out internally to a similar standard to the existing East Midlands fleet.

Don't the TFW class 158 units have different driver controls to the EMR units? Would you also not have to remove the ETCS from the TFW class 158's?

 

[Neptune]

There aren't going to be any spares from Scotland as 170s will be cascaded once Fife is electrified to replace 156s and 158s. Northern has 16 3 car units that would ease the shortage significantly.

It’s been a while but here we go. The usual raid on Northern’s 170 fleet which will never happen in reality. What are you replacing them with and how much money are you spending on Botanic Gardens to allow it maintain a different fleet after it has just had a fortune spent on it to allow it to become the base for the 170 fleet.

 

[tbtc]

1. A lot depends on whether Liverpool -Sheffield - Cleethorpes and Liverpool - Sheffield - Nottingham are run under the same franchise/ contract

2. In theory, the MML will be properly electrified at some stage this decade, in which case I’d naively hope that there’d be some kind of impetus to wire other lines in the area (North of Sheffield to Moorthorpe/ Doncaster, Hope Valley, Robin Hood, Stoke…) which might affect your need for DMUs

3. There’s speculation about GWR getting a “provincial” fleet renewal Which would free up a lot of 158s etc

 

[Brubulus]

I wonder if they might be able to lease enough 158s to strengthen all the Liverpool-Nottingham diagrams to 6 cars. Particularly the Manchester-Sheffield section is known for overcrowding. The obvious candidates are the TfW units - replacements on order and already fitted out internally to a similar standard as the existing East Midlands fleet.

Liverpool-Norwich should be 3+2 170 with 3 coaches as far as Sheffield and 5 to Liverpool. I've always thought of Sheffield as a better place to couple units than Nottingham due to the fact theres a reversal though I understand it is operationally more convienient to split at Nottingham. Plus the fact that it's closer to where delays are concentrated (Castlefield and Hope Valley). Regarding unit length, I think that 2 car units with a slight oversupply is the most efficent way to run EMR regional services as some routes are busy at weekends, others are during the week and allowing capacity to be matched with demand more easily would be most efficent. 3 car units are necessary on some routes, I do concede.

It’s been a while but here we go. The usual raid on Northern’s 170 fleet which will never happen in reality. What are you replacing them with and how much money are you spending on Botanic Gardens to allow it maintain a different fleet after it has just had a fortune spent on it to allow it to become the base for the 170 fleet.

EMRs 158s. Swap them over so neither operator has a microfleet. Sprinters can be maintained at Botanic Gardens. In the medium term, merge Northern and TPE, order a large new battery fleet with a 70-100 mile operating range and there should be just enough 195s and 185s to run the routes that a battery unit cannot run with a bit of timetable adjustment.

 

[dk1]

I wonder if they might be able to lease enough 158s to strengthen all the Liverpool-Nottingham diagrams to 6 cars. The route is known for overcrowding. The obvious candidates are the TfW units - replacements on order and already fitted out internally to a similar standard to the existing East Midlands fleet.

There were tentative plans to make up 3-car 158s to operate as 5-cars west of Nottingham. Nothing confirmed yet.

 

[Neptune]

EMRs 158s. Swap them over so neither operator has a microfleet. Sprinters can be maintained at Botanic Gardens. In the medium term, merge Northern and TPE, order a large new battery fleet with a 70-100 mile operating range and there should be just enough 195s and 185s to run the routes that a battery unit cannot run with a bit of timetable adjustment.

So you think it’s acceptable for Northern to replace 2005 built 3 car units for 1990 built 2 car units? The days of Northern being considered a country cousin dumping ground for BR scrap are evidently still around.

 

[LowLevel]

EMR 158s are leased for another 7 years until 2030 and will begin to be refreshed this year.

EMR 170s are expected to run well into the 2030s and again will begin to be refurbished shortly. All bar the 170/2s will be getting new seats, the 170/2s have nearly new seats fitted so they'll be keeping those.

EMR have 5 156s left in traffic and they'll be withdrawn in just over a month.

 

[dk1]

EMR 158s are leased for another 7 years until 2030 and will begin to be refreshed this year.

EMR 170s are expected to run well into the 2030s and again will begin to be refurbished shortly. All bar the 170/2s will be getting new seats, the 170/2s have nearly new seats fitted so they'll be keeping those.

EMR have 5 156s left in traffic and they'll be withdrawn in just over a month.

Are you referring to the Anglia 170/2s? Apart from where 1st class was replaced by standard in 201-208 & where the buffet/senior conductor compartments were there the original seating was just re-covered before transferring to Wales.

 

[LowLevel]

Are you referring to the Anglia 170/2s? Apart from where 1st class was replaced by standard in 201-208 & where the buffet/senior conductor compartments were there the original seating was just re-covered before transferring to Wales.

Apparently they've had refurbished shells fitted at some point fairly recently which are in good condition. I get the impression spares for the Lazzerini seats in the 170/5s might be getting a bit scarce, particularly the folding seats in the wheelchair spaces.

 

[dk1]

Apparently they've had refurbished shells fitted at some point fairly recently which are in good condition. I get the impression spares for the Lazzerini seats in the 170/5s might be getting a bit scarce, particularly the folding seats in the wheelchair spaces.

The folding seats were constantly getting broken from new. Anything done shell wise can only have been done by TfW as nothing was done prior to that.

 

[JonathanH]

I've always thought of Sheffield as a better place to couple units than Nottingham due to the fact theres a reversal though I understand it is operationally more convienient to split at Nottingham.

The current timetable doesn't really lend itself to a Sheffield split with trains in both directions arriving in the same part of the hour, and neither does the platform space.

 

[Failed Unit]

The current timetable doesn't really lend itself to a Sheffield split with trains in both directions arriving in the same part of the hour, and neither does the platform space.

From my experience the Nottingham split is the only one that makes sense. Still a lot of passengers travelling from Nottingham beyond Sheffield. Whereas after Nottingham the units are a lot more empty. 3 cars may work, but not helping any growth.

 

[DDB]

There were tentative plans to make up 3-car 158s to operate as 5-cars west of Nottingham. Nothing confirmed yet.

I know we speculated about that on this board because the maths seems to work in terms of unit numbers but have there been independent rumours of this?
I can see it happening as it doesn't involve spending any new money just not saving money by sending some 158 off lease or somewhere else and no new staff training is needed.
It would allow the government to be seen to do something about the Sheffield Manchester corridor even though what really needs doing is sorting out TPE.

 

[Failed Unit]

It was mentioned in the railway press a while ago, I guess they can make it happen soon. 158s are a lot less frequent visitors to Lincolnshire. I assume they are keeping them on Liverpool - Norwich more now.

 

[TheBigD]

It was mentioned in the railway press a while ago, I guess they can make it happen soon. 158s are a lot less frequent visitors to Lincolnshire. I assume they are keeping them on Liverpool - Norwich more now.

On the eastern leg is still mostly 158s, with the odd 156 still making an appearance. 170s are starting to make more appearances though. From my observations, Sunday seems to be the best bet for a 170 on the eastern leg.

 

[dk1]

I know we speculated about that on this board because the maths seems to work in terms of unit numbers but have there been independent rumours of this?
I can see it happening as it doesn't involve spending any new money just not saving money by sending some 158 off lease or somewhere else and no new staff training is needed.
It would allow the government to be seen to do something about the Sheffield Manchester corridor even though what really needs doing is sorting out TPE.

It was mentioned in a recent Modern Railways article all about EMR and future plans.

 

[RailWonderer]

It was mentioned in the railway press a while ago, I guess they can make it happen soon. 158s are a lot less frequent visitors to Lincolnshire. I assume they are keeping them on Liverpool - Norwich more now.

The 158s do run on the Nottingham Lincoln regularly, and the 170s ocasionally on the Norwich - Liverpool.

As for the OP, the 170s are midlife and the 158s will probably be replaced by cascades. I don't see a large fleet renewal for EMR. My money is on Southeastern, GWR and Scotrail for the next decade and little else. Service life is between 30-40 years depending on luck of the draw, politics of the day, level of maintenance the units have had and overall condition (i.e. interior wear, corrosion etc). 170s have a lot of life left.

Apparently they've had refurbished shells fitted at some point fairly recently which are in good condition. I get the impression spares for the Lazzerini seats in the 170/5s might be getting a bit scarce, particularly the folding seats in the wheelchair spaces.

Where did you hear this? Most 170s have Lazzerini seats, or some variation of them.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although they do expect to lose to Norwich-Liverpool service this is due to it splitting into 2 services with them still running Norwich-Sheffield so they need the Sprinter classification for around Thetford and Ely.

The split of Liverpool - Norwich was cancelled, it‘s been pointed out in numerous previous EMR related threads.

If it had not been cancelled the proposal in the ITT was to split the service at Nottingham anyway, not Sheffield.

 

[MattRat]

The only reason you'd give EMR a new fleet, is to cascade units elsewhere. I don't have a problem with that, just pointing it out.

 

[QSK19]

The 360s are perfect for EMR if they were maintained better by Greater Anglia, 21 4 car gives 7 12 cars which is perfect for the 6 needed with 3 sets left for maintanence.

The 360s are flawed: one of the reasons you mention being that EMR were dealt a bad hand of cards in terms of the 360s arriving from GA in a run down condition. Also, they are without gangways, which is poor in terms of passenger spread and also I seem to remember that this caused issues with the RMT protesting against guards not being situated in every unit in 12 car running?

I think the 379s would have been a very good fit being gangwayed and younger; but high leasing costs and 30 units being too many for the Connect service went against that possibility. IMO, what EMR needs is a bunch of 745s in a regional express layout with plenty of storage space in view of the Connect service now serving as the Luton Airport Express.

But that is very wishful thinking - unfortunately, the 360s are here to stay and no refurbishment seems to be forthcoming. Given that the service is extremely popular and hence people will travel regardless of the condition of the trains, changing the rolling stock or refurbishing them won’t really add value.

Regional trains-wise, once the 158s are life-expired in 10-15 years’ time, maybe WMR will have moved onto bi-mode stock and 196s will hence end up going to EMR/its future iteration?

 

[RobShipway]

The 360s are flawed: one of the reasons you mention being that EMR were dealt a bad hand of cards in terms of the 360s arriving from GA in a run down condition. Also, they are without gangways, which is poor in terms of passenger spread and also I seem to remember that this caused issues with the RMT protesting against guards not being situated in every unit in 12 car running?

I think the 379s would have been a very good fit being gangwayed and younger; but high leasing costs and 30 units being too many for the Connect service went against that possibility. IMO, what EMR needs is a bunch of 745s in a regional express layout with plenty of storage space in view of the Connect service now serving as the Luton Airport Express.

But that is very wishful thinking - unfortunately, the 360s are here to stay and no refurbishment seems to be forthcoming. Given that the service is extremely popular and hence people will travel regardless of the condition of the trains, changing the rolling stock or refurbishing them won’t really add value.

Regional trains-wise, once the 158s are life-expired in 10-15 years’ time, maybe WMR will have moved onto bi-mode stock and 196s will hence end up going to EMR/its future iteration?

Not sure what other services the class 360's could have been used on? The class 379's though I believe should have gone to Great Northern to release the class 387 units to Southern or South Eastern. This would help with replacement of class 313 fleet with Southern and go towards replacement of class 465 fleet with South Eastern.

As you say you will have class 158 and I suspect class 159 as well becoming life expired in 10 - 15 years time. I would have hoped by then, that there is a dual voltage tri - mode train by that time, that could work 3rd rail dc/OHLE, but also on battery and diesel power in the way that the class 756 works. Ideally it would be British built too by either CAF, Siemens, Hitachi or Alstom.

As well as the class 158/159 units that will need replacing in the next 10 to 15 years, you also have the class 465 fleet, plus class 318, 320 so maybe an order could be made of different versions of the same train to replace all of these types of units?