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New rail lines in Scotland

VioletEclipse

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The solution would be to remodel Portobello Jn through to Shawfair in a wholesale attempt to speed up services and increase capacity. If you do that, you could dual Brunstane station, increase the connectivity with buses, and turn it into a little transport hub, but you'd still be sending the good people of Portobello twenty minutes walk in the wrong direction to pick up 2tph to Edinburgh. I expect most people would stick with the 26 bus, no matter how busy it gets.
Very well put, Brunstane station is at the complete wrong end of Porty to be attractive to most people, with no direct bus there from the town centre. Even now most folk would never get the train despite it being so much faster into Edinburgh than the 26. In my opinion, completely rebuilding the whole Craigentinny Depot to Portobello Junction section to put a new station in where the old one used to be, while increasing capacity significantly is absolutely worth it in the long term, maybe even nescecarry. However it would be massively expensive, disruptie and time consuming, so I woulldn't be too hopeful.
 
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waverley47

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Very well put, Brunstane station is at the complete wrong end of Porty to be attractive to most people, with no direct bus there from the town centre. Even now most folk would never get the train despite it being so much faster into Edinburgh than the 26. In my opinion, completely rebuilding the whole Craigentinny Depot to Portobello Junction section to put a new station in where the old one used to be, while increasing capacity significantly is absolutely worth it in the long term, maybe even nescecarry. However it would be massively expensive, disruptie and time consuming, so I woulldn't be too hopeful.

You'd be spending somewhere between a third and half a billion quid to marginally increase capacity.

You'd be closing the line from Mussleburgh and Newcraighall to Waverley for potentially several months, during which you'd be limited severely by the capacity of the sub for diversions, and it's lack of wires. Disruption would be, as you said, severe.

Now, there's not much you could actually get out of it this particular scheme without significant enhancements elsewhere. I think you misunderstood me. This remodeling wouldn't be an enhancement, it's the bare minimum. Specifically, the bare minimum that would be necessary to put in a new station with more than two platforms, while maintaining line speed and capacity on the ECML, and enhancing speed over Portobello Jn to the Borders Line.

You need to spend this money on more than two platforms to put in a station that doesn't crater capacity by stopping 3tph on a very busy two track section three miles from Waverley. The capacity you gain by remodelling is about equivalent to the capacity you lose by building the station in the first place.

If you wanted more capacity, this scheme doesn't really do that; at a minimum you'd need to four track some of Wallyford-Drem and remodel the western throat of Waverley, including the tunnels. It's into the realm of diminishing returns, the amount you have to spend for each extra path increases exponentially.

Of course we could do a full feasibility study on this, however I don't think it's necessary. A station would have anywhere between 0.2m - 0.8m annual passengers, depending on how nice you make it, and how big, and what you stop there, and how often trains stop, ect... That's anywhere from a station with basically the same usage as Brunstane, and just as depressing, to spending a lot of money and getting somewhere nice, with more users than Edinburgh Park and Edinburgh Gateway combined.

If you think that spending all this money to build a Portobello station is worth it, then it might be worth it, but I'd humbly suggest that trams might be a better investment.
 

Kingston Dan

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You'd be spending somewhere between a third and half a billion quid to marginally increase capacity.

You'd be closing the line from Mussleburgh and Newcraighall to Waverley for potentially several months, during which you'd be limited severely by the capacity of the sub for diversions, and it's lack of wires. Disruption would be, as you said, severe.

Now, there's not much you could actually get out of it this particular scheme without significant enhancements elsewhere. I think you misunderstood me. This remodeling wouldn't be an enhancement, it's the bare minimum. Specifically, the bare minimum that would be necessary to put in a new station with more than two platforms, while maintaining line speed and capacity on the ECML, and enhancing speed over Portobello Jn to the Borders Line.

You need to spend this money on more than two platforms to put in a station that doesn't crater capacity by stopping 3tph on a very busy two track section three miles from Waverley. The capacity you gain by remodelling is about equivalent to the capacity you lose by building the station in the first place.

If you wanted more capacity, this scheme doesn't really do that; at a minimum you'd need to four track some of Wallyford-Drem and remodel the western throat of Waverley, including the tunnels. It's into the realm of diminishing returns, the amount you have to spend for each extra path increases exponentially.

Of course we could do a full feasibility study on this, however I don't think it's necessary. A station would have anywhere between 0.2m - 0.8m annual passengers, depending on how nice you make it, and how big, and what you stop there, and how often trains stop, ect... That's anywhere from a station with basically the same usage as Brunstane, and just as depressing, to spending a lot of money and getting somewhere nice, with more users than Edinburgh Park and Edinburgh Gateway combined.

If you think that spending all this money to build a Portobello station is worth it, then it might be worth it, but I'd humbly suggest that trams might be a better investment.
While all of that's fair enough - don't we need the Wallyford-Drem four tracking, Waverley eastern throat improvement, rebuilding the Borders Railway junction anyway to improve existing services eg half hourly from North Berwick, extra Dunbar/Berwick services (for Reston and East Linton) and extra 'inner suburban' Borders Rail services? A station at Portobello could be an additional benefit from the work rather than a reason.
 

rapmastaj

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Much more likely than Portobello is a new station at Blindwells to support housing development there, as well as providing a Parkway for Tranent and Cockenzie/Port Seton.
 

0161

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Outside candidate that's local to me: a re-opened Errol station forming the western terminus for an Errol - Arbroath service. This would make sense if proposed housing development around Errol goes ahead.

Reopening Errol would make a huge difference to the Carse, as I personally find it hugely cut off in terms of public transport.

But why would you have a local "TayRail" service from Arbroath not go the extra ten miles into Perth as its terminus?
 

najaB

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But why would you have a local "TayRail" service from Arbroath not go the extra ten miles into Perth as its terminus?
You could do that, but there's already around 2tph to Perth and the single track bridge to consider. Of course, if the timetable works then there's no harm in continuing to terminate at Perth.
 

lachlan

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Newtonhill should be a contender. I have heard lack of parking at the former station site, and not wanting to build it to the south as it would reduce the gap between Newtonhill and Muchalls, as reasons why it hasn't been built yet.

Sadly it appears the "Aberdeen Crossrail" services have mostly disappeared (I only see six in the timetable each direction today). These would have been a good fit for a reopened Newtonhill.
 
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318266

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S&W of Alexander Dennis, N&E of Wrightbus
Reopening Errol would make a huge difference to the Carse, as I personally find it hugely cut off in terms of public transport.

But why would you have a local "TayRail" service from Arbroath not go the extra ten miles into Perth as its terminus?
Because then you are locked into using the old Errol station location, which isn't the most accessible unless the government decides to put a lot more houses there to justify it, or place a frequent bus link (and sustain that link with the railway forever, which hasn't lasted with our present system) whereas if you were to build over what is mostly farmland to serve the top of Errol itself, it would be much more convenient and also leaves the single track section free for any time engineering works/weather/emergency incidents result in route via the Bridges being blocked.
 

najaB

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Because then you are locked into using the old Errol station location, which isn't the most accessible unless the government decides to put a lot more houses there to justify it, or place a frequent bus link (and sustain that link with the railway forever, which hasn't lasted with our present system) whereas if you were to build over what is mostly farmland to serve the top of Errol itself, it would be much more convenient and also leaves the single track section free for any time engineering works/weather/emergency incidents result in route via the Bridges being blocked.
That's true, though it does increase the cost by at least an order of magnitude - that's around a 1km of new single track, vs renewed platforms and a new footbridge.
 

waverley47

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While all of that's fair enough - don't we need the Wallyford-Drem four tracking, Waverley eastern throat improvement, rebuilding the Borders Railway junction anyway to improve existing services eg half hourly from North Berwick, extra Dunbar/Berwick services (for Reston and East Linton) and extra 'inner suburban' Borders Rail services? A station at Portobello could be an additional benefit from the work rather than a reason.

The problem is that you get scope creep very quickly. Yes, being able to have the space for Portobello station would be a possible benefit of any remodelling. However, the difference in cost between remodelling the junction, and wholesale slewing of a mile of double track mainline, four junctions, and building a four platform station is astronomical.

Each one of those projects will be needed to eek out any more paths east of Waverley, which is necessary to meet future projected demand into the city from East Lothian and the Borders. However, if you start adding on bits and pieces 'while you're in the area' then it starts getting very expensive very quickly.

When embarking on a project such as this, we ask ourselves four questions; is there demand, is it possible, are there better alternatives, and is it affordable. For remodelling the whole of Portobello for a hypothetical station, I would posit that the answer to at least two of those questions has a pretty large asterix next to it, and I'm not sure spending the best part of half a billion quid is the best choice of action.
 

jeffinabox

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https://www.aberdeenlive.news/news/...n=continue_reading_button#amp-readmore-target

Liam Kerr banging the drum again in the North East.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

https://www.scotborders.gov.uk/news...jjqVPtuFoSAWIVvZWj_aem_Y66Rh3eXwHO61EoswK124Q

Work is continuing to explore the potential extension of the Borders Railway to Hawick and Carlisle.

Working with project manager, Turner & Townsend, we have been engaging with key partners, including Transport Scotland and the Department for Transport to agree the next steps in developing the Strategic Outline Business Case (SOBC). This is the first stage in the business case process and is designed to assess the transport options and potential benefits that would best serve this part of the South of Scotland and Northern England.
Constructive feedback has now been received from both governments, confirming support for the overall approach and allowing the Council to progress to the next phase of work. This will include testing interest from specialist consultants to help shape the development of the SOBC in line with national guidance and best practice.
This work will also provide opportunities to engage with local partners, stakeholders, and communities to help shape the work as it develops.
Any future procurement activity will take place in line with agreed governance processes and in close coordination with funding partners. Further updates will be provided as this work progresses.
The Borders Railway extension project is being supported through funding from the UK and Scottish governments via the Borderlands Inclusive Growth Deal.
We will provide future public communications on the progress of the Borders Railway Business Case process on a new webpage on the Scottish Borders Council website, including outlining the expected timescales for the work. Details on the new webpage will be provided in due course.
 
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numtot12345

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On the face of it, Cove and Newtonhill seem sensible locations for new rail stations (compared to say Reston...) but also in the context of future electrification up to Aberdeen whereby wires would better support the local Aberdeen cross-rail type services.
 

och aye

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On the face of it, Cove and Newtonhill seem sensible locations for new rail stations (compared to say Reston...) but also in the context of future electrification up to Aberdeen whereby wires would better support the local Aberdeen cross-rail type services.
I wonder if these stations would be more likely to be built at the same time as when the electrification programme reaches Aberdeen?

Also, would these new stations require additional capacity at Aberdeen station? I know there was some talk a few years ago to potentially bring back disused platform(s?)
 

najaB

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Also, would these new stations require additional capacity at Aberdeen station? I know there was some talk a few years ago to potentially bring back disused platform(s?)
Possibly, though I think they're most often spoken of in terms of an Aberdeen cross-rail type service so the extra capacity need might be a turn back somewhere north of the city.
 

gingertom

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Possibly, though I think they're most often spoken of in terms of an Aberdeen cross-rail type service so the extra capacity need might be a turn back somewhere north of the city.
Thought it possible to turn services back at Kittybrewster, Dyce or Inverurie, the latter two being potentially more useful.
 

najaB

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Thought it possible to turn services back at Kittybrewster, Dyce or Inverurie, the latter two being potentially more useful.
Yes, they definitely turn trains at Dyce and Inverurie. My pondering was that there might still be a need for a terminal platform or a siding if trains were going to wait for an extended period.
 

gingertom

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Yes, they definitely turn trains at Dyce and Inverurie. My pondering was that there might still be a need for a terminal platform or a siding if trains were going to wait for an extended period.
there's certainly plenty of space on the eastern side to create a turnback bay platform- there was quite a formation way back in the day. A lot of civils required, new footbridge, lifts. I do have to ask though, what problem are you trying to solve that justifies the (considerable) investment?
 

najaB

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there's certainly plenty of space on the eastern side to create a turnback bay platform- there was quite a formation way back in the day. A lot of civils required, new footbridge, lifts. I do have to ask though, what problem are you trying to solve that justifies the (considerable) investment?
I don't mean space to turn trains at Aberdeen.

What I meant is that, depending on how long "Aberdeen cross-rail" trains would wait at Dyce or Inverurie, there might be a need for somewhere for them to get out of the way of services to/from Inverness.
 

Morayshire

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I don't mean space to turn trains at Aberdeen.

What I meant is that, depending on how long "Aberdeen cross-rail" trains would wait at Dyce or Inverurie, there might be a need for somewhere for them to get out of the way of services to/from Inverness.
Ideally they would run to Inverurie but if they did have to turn around at Dyce, could they use the sidings at Raiths Farm?
 

gingertom

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I think Raith's farm could be used as a turnback, if it hasn't already been used as such.

At Inverurie, you have to head north a bit to get to the turnback crossovers. Not sure if there's a siding to get out of the way of other traffic there. It takes time to get there, time for the driver to change ends, time to get back to the Aberdeen bound platform. Your suggestion of a bay platform to turnback a train would allow for a timely return of an incoming service, or stay out of the way for a through service. Such a facility would be a useful feature, and hopefully one day traffic demand could be such to require it. Can't see it happening in my lifetime.
 

RiverDon

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The Raiths Farm sidings have gates locked across the tracks and Scotrail can't go in there.

You can actually turn back in the Down platform at Inverurie, you don't have to go into the turn back siding. There are a few trains that are booked to do this.

On an earlier point in the thread the rumour locally is that another through platform will be rebuilt at Aberdeen when the signals are replaced, which will be alongside platform 7 and will need the current Down Station Siding headshunt to be moved across a bit to accommodate it. The platform is there, it just needs track and signals.
 

Morayshire

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The Raiths Farm sidings have gates locked across the tracks and Scotrail can't go in there.

You can actually turn back in the Down platform at Inverurie, you don't have to go into the turn back siding. There are a few trains that are booked to do this.

On an earlier point in the thread the rumour locally is that another through platform will be rebuilt at Aberdeen when the signals are replaced, which will be alongside platform 7 and will need the current Down Station Siding headshunt to be moved across a bit to accommodate it. The platform is there, it just needs track and signals.
If they reopen platform 8 then do they need to move the carriage washing plant over a bit as well? It looks a tad close to the southern end of Platform 7 south
 

RiverDon

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If they reopen platform 8 then do they need to move the carriage washing plant over a bit as well? It looks a tad close to the southern end of Platform 7 south

Yeah the wash probably needs moved too I guess.
 

numtot12345

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Since we are in the speculative thread, would they double track Hutcheon Street tunnel if they wired it?

I'm pretty sure the double tracking was one of several reasons the Ellon Rail Link ended up being too cost-prohibitive.
 

Morayshire

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Since we are in the speculative thread, would they double track Hutcheon Street tunnel if they wired it?

I'm pretty sure the double tracking was one of several reasons the Ellon Rail Link ended up being too cost-prohibitive.
From memory, Hutcheon Street tunnel was not redoubled along with the rest of the line to Inverurie due to limited clearances within the tunnel. Cannot remember why though.

Redoubling through the tunnel was probably be in the "how <insert expletive of choice> much" expensive price range back then and is probably even more so now
 

numtot12345

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From memory, Hutcheon Street tunnel was not redoubled along with the rest of the line to Inverurie due to limited clearances within the tunnel. Cannot remember why though.

Redoubling through the tunnel was probably be in the "how <insert expletive of choice> much" expensive price range back then and is probably even more so now
I wonder then if even with single track, they would be able to wire up the tunnel or otherwise have the new BEMUs running on their own power at this section.
 

lachlan

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Possibly, though I think they're most often spoken of in terms of an Aberdeen cross-rail type service so the extra capacity need might be a turn back somewhere north of the city.
The hourly Montrose-Inverurie trains could call at Cove and Newtonhill.

On the face of it, Cove and Newtonhill seem sensible locations for new rail stations (compared to say Reston...) but also in the context of future electrification up to Aberdeen whereby wires would better support the local Aberdeen cross-rail type services.
There were objections locally to Newtonhill station due to either a lack of parking at a central location or the loss of open land between Newtonhill and Muchalls. I don't know if a plan was finalised.
 

Cloud Strife

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When was it ever single carriageway? It may be lacking a hard shoulder, but as far as I’m aware the M90 has always been dual carriageway.

It wasn't, unless you count the contraflow sections that opened when one carriageway was finished and the other wasn't.

It may not be the busiest road, but there’s enough HGVs on it that the ability to pass them is critical. Just look at the A9 for how it could be.

It's an absolute non-starter to downgrade the M90. Yes, it's not the busiest of motorways, but going north would be unbearable without it. With the A9 painfully being dualled, it's only going to increase traffic further as places further north gain a decent road connection towards the Central Belt.

A more direct Edinburgh-Perth via Kinross appears under consideration.

Hard to see that happening in the near to medium future. It's just not that important, not when compared to more pressing needs.
 

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