New Rail Head In Ribblesdale

[55018ballymoss]

Thanks for the correction - I was hoping someone who knew the patch would come along to dig me out . Presumably they ran round in the loop on the Up side at Blea Moor then? Is any part of it unsignalled? It's been a while since I've travelled over there!

Hi Tom,
As far as I know all signalled, including Limit of Shunt boards. Though it has been a couple of years since I walked up there - I tend to prefer the warmer climate of Hellifield...
It will be good to have my friend in Settle Junction working a little harder. Heck with axle counters, IBs and now a ground frame, it might earn him an extra grade...

 

[Tomnick]

Thanks for that - having had a closer look at a photo of the box diagram, I can certainly see a signalled move out of the north end of the loop towards a limit of shunt indicator. I'm still not sure about the route into the loop from the Down Home (29?) though - my recollection is that this is a three aspect C/L signal, reading only towards the Down Starter with no sub to take them anywhere else. Any idea whether that's changed recently?

Always good to see your mate next door having to work harder for his money than you...not a feeling that I'm familiar with much at the moment!!

 

[BantamMenace]

Would this give an additional train each day needing to cross the throat at Leeds?

Also, couldn't a shunter take the wagons up to Blea Moor and then a light loco collect from there before the shunter runs light engine back go the quarry. Surely there's enough time and capacity on the S&C for an older shunter to trundle up and down a few times to form a full train in the siding at Blea?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Would this give an additional train each day needing to cross the throat at Leeds?

Also, couldn't a shunter take the wagons up to Blea Moor and then a light loco collect from there before the shunter runs light engine back go the quarry. Surely there's enough time and capacity on the S&C for an older shunter to trundle up and down a few times to form a full train in the siding at Blea?

I'm sorry but I don't see the point in all of this. The loco that hauls the empties will stay with the train whilst it is loaded before running up to Blea Moor to run round the train. Not only that but a 20 mph shunter would cause havoc on any mainline, especially given that its highly unlikely that a crossover would ever be installed at Helwith Bridge.

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed, why go to all the bother of providing a shunting loco and driver (both to mainline standard), the complication of splitting the train to form it up again at Blea Moor (which wouldn't be a simple shunt) and finding paths for a 15mph trundle up to Settle Jn afterwards for it to cross over?! Even if the incoming loco left its train at the new siding and returned light, to be replaced by another later in the day, there'd be absolutely nothing to be gained by the above performance.

 

[L&Y Robert]

Also, couldn't a shunter take the wagons up to Blea Moor and then a light loco collect from there before the shunter runs light engine back go the quarry. Surely there's enough time and capacity on the S&C for an older shunter to trundle up and down a few times to form a full train in the siding at Blea?

"Runs light engine back to the quarry" - running back "Wrong Road" of course?

Also, I note from the planning submission that an empty train "Will take from 3 to 4 hours to load". If top and tailed, that's 2 locos hanging about doing nothing for that time.

And another thing, does the loading point somehow move up and down the train? - or does the train have to move through the loading point? They might need an engine on site to do this, - one fitted with a slow moving gear.
AND! - enough track on each side of the loading point to take the entire train and its engine.

In my youth in Lancashire (sigh!) there were similar sidings all over the place to collect coal wagons from small collieries and it didn't seem too much of an operational problem. BY way of example, there were three such between Burnley Manchester Road and Todmorden, at Towneley, Cliviger, and - of course - Copy Pit.

 

[Tomnick]

Very little chance of provision for a wrong road move back from Blea Moor to the quarry siding, if that's what you're suggesting. There's no need, unless there's a problem elsewhere on the train's route, for it to be top and tailed - and, in any case, how is hanging around for three or four hours any different to working light loco to somewhere else useful (which would probably take longer than that if you include the corresponding light loco move to collect the loaded train). Add the cost of a suitable shunting loco (plus AWS, TPWS, GSM-R, OTMR), a competent mainline driver and the faff of trying to form up a train at Blea Moor (how?), and it all starts to look ridiculous.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Very little chance of provision for a wrong road move back from Blea Moor to the quarry siding, if that's what you're suggesting. There's no need, unless there's a problem elsewhere on the train's route, for it to be top and tailed - and, in any case, how is hanging around for three or four hours any different to working light loco to somewhere else useful (which would probably take longer than that if you include the corresponding light loco move to collect the loaded train). Add the cost of a suitable shunting loco (plus AWS, TPWS, GSM-R, OTMR), a competent mainline driver and the faff of trying to form up a train at Blea Moor (how?), and it all starts to look ridiculous.

In all fairness I suspect the entire operation will be very similar to what happens from time to time at Ribblehead, for both logs and stone. The empties arrive, reverse into the siding (sidings at Ribblehead) and the train is loaded with the train loco doing any necessary shunting. The whole thing then runs over the viaduct and the loco runs round the train. No need for costly light engine movements or top and tail. I have to say that I don't envy anyone being up on Blea Moor on a nasty winters day!

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Would this give an additional train each day needing to cross the throat at Leeds?

It might go down the western route from Hellifield depending on where the traffic goes.

There are plenty of coal train paths in the working timetable that pass from the S&C through to Leeds that are rarely if ever used so I doubt it would be too much trouble to find a suitable path. It is routing into and through Leeds station itself that is at a premium.

 

[The Planner]

Yes, but they are paths for a coal train, unless a FOC wants to give one of them up then a new one needs to be found.

 

[Tomnick]

In all fairness I suspect the entire operation will be very similar to what happens from time to time at Ribblehead, for both logs and stone. The empties arrive, reverse into the siding (sidings at Ribblehead) and the train is loaded with the train loco doing any necessary shunting. The whole thing then runs over the viaduct and the loco runs round the train. No need for costly light engine movements or top and tail. I have to say that I don't envy anyone being up on Blea Moor on a nasty winters day!

I agreed wholeheartedly - there'd be absolutely no benefit from the suggested faffing with a shunting loco, only a huge amount of extra expense.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Yes, but they are paths for a coal train, unless a FOC wants to give one of them up then a new one needs to be found.

If and (that's a big if!) DBS or Freightliner were to win the contract I'm guessing that the issue of spare paths would not be a problem? I guess it also depends on how far the train travels once it leaves Blea Moor i.e. if it’s the South East it could easily run over night. Would it be possible for the train to arrive at Blea Moor at say 18.00 and then wait for several hours until all the passenger services have finished for the day? How would this impact on driver hours?

Please forgive me for the endless questions but I'm merely a commuter with an interest in railways and in particular the S & C!

 

[Tomnick]

It wouldn't be the first time that a train has been booked to recess in a loop somewhere for a couple of hours or more - just keep hoping that you don't need to use it for something else in the meantime!

 

[The Planner]

If and (that's a big if!) DBS or Freightliner were to win the contract I'm guessing that the issue of spare paths would not be a problem? I guess it also depends on how far the train travels once it leaves Blea Moor i.e. if it’s the South East it could easily run over night. Would it be possible for the train to arrive at Blea Moor at say 18.00 and then wait for several hours until all the passenger services have finished for the day? How would this impact on driver hours?

The colour of the engine is irrelevant, if they want the coal paths kept as they are for any future use etc, then new paths need to be found for the quarry. If they are there then great, if not then someone needs to go away and see what can be moved about to make it work. The FOC will specify how long they want the path to be and where any stops are to occur, we'll work to that spec and offer the best solution.

 

[DarloRich]

Out of intreast how much would it cost to include full signalling for a long loop . Im assuming a long loop siding to lock trains into to quarry with an exit signal from siding, catch points on each end of loop. 2 signals ie distant and stop for siding cw feathers for siding. On southbound line with no crossover to northbound, I seem to remember quarrys are to east of running lines. And while yore at how much extra to at least install signalling for a North to South facing crossover before loop exit. You could install crossover later if traffic justified. I put this in a laymans terms but im fairly sure im close to what is required, just have no idea of costs of such work.

Think of a big number, double it, go away and think again. Select a bigger number. Then double your new number and add some contingency. Then add a bit more. Seriously - it is ruinously expensive to touch signalling equipment and supporting circuits

Pardon my dumb ignorance, but why can't freights be run top-and-tailed rather than having to run-round?

It costs too much to have one engine sitting idle for mist of the day and ties up resources that can be used profitably somewhere else. There also isn’t the flexibility in many FOC fleets to allow for this under utilisation. I also saw someone suggest using a shunting loco to drag the train out of the sidings. That again has quite a high costs ,especially In a remote location as you have to get the loco there, keep it maintained and fuelled then cart it back by road to a works facility for inspections etc. That is before you consider tying up scare paths with a slow shunter running the wrong way down the line to get back to the siding and consider the cost impact of fitting all the safety/radio kits required and potentially ERTMS kit in the future!. Easier just to get the train engine to shunt/propel as required. Finally, unless they are loading the train by mechanical shovel (which I expect) the train will have to be drawn forward under some kind of overhead hopper to fill the wagons. Again surely it is easier to have the train engine do this.

If and (that's a big if!) DBS or Freightliner were to win the contract I'm guessing that the issue of spare paths would not be a problem? I guess it also depends on how far the train travels once it leaves Blea Moor i.e. if it’s the South East it could easily run over night. Would it be possible for the train to arrive at Blea Moor at say 18.00 and then wait for several hours until all the passenger services have finished for the day? How would this impact on driver hours?

Please forgive me for the endless questions but I'm merely a commuter with an interest in railways and in particular the S & C!

It is unlikely the FOC would give up any paths – they may already be assigned to a pending service or a potential new service. It will be a case of the FOC putting in the details of the service they wish to run and the planners trying to shoe horn something into the existing timetable. They often manage – but I am not sure how!

 

[Tomnick]

If you wanted any proposed shunting loco to go the 'wrong way' back from Blea Moor to the new siding, you'd be looking at a further vast increase in costs just to provide the necessary signalling. You just can't routinely make movements through a typical AB section in the wrong direction! I still don't see what it'd achieve anyway.

 

[55018ballymoss]

Hopefully whoever provides the service to the new siding will have better luck than Colas recently. The first log train of the year was a couple of hours late into Ribblehead sidings on Friday morning, and on arrival 56078 was declared a failure.
Colas sent two light engines from Washwood Heath on Saturday, 56087 and 47739, which arrived in the early evening at Ribblehead. These were shut in at Ribblehead on Saturday night.
Unfortunately attempts to move the failed engine and loaded log train failed on Sunday due to a points failure...
Hopefully, the first loaded log train will leave on Monday afternoon, possibly triple headed, but that is as yet unconfirmed.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Hopefully whoever provides the service to the new siding will have better luck than Colas recently. The first log train of the year was a couple of hours late into Ribblehead sidings on Friday morning, and on arrival 56078 was declared a failure.
Colas sent two light engines from Washwood Heath on Saturday, 56087 and 47739, which arrived in the early evening at Ribblehead. These were shut in at Ribblehead on Saturday night.
Unfortunately attempts to move the failed engine and loaded log train failed on Sunday due to a points failure...
Hopefully, the first loaded log train will leave on Monday afternoon, possibly triple headed, but that is as yet unconfirmed.

Just out of interest, in the event of a loco failure in such a remote area what happens to the crew? Are they expected to use a company credit card to book a cab and organise hotel rooms? I'm just thinking there isn't much up there unless they can get rooms in the Station Inn.