New poster on ticket

[Brucey]

Some newer TVMs print receipts on till roll. The new ones on the Easr London Line have two Newbury printers and also a till roll printer, and yes it can print on all three at once

Sadly, despite being able to print much more text, they still only sell "001 TICKET". And if you're really lucky, you may be able to purchase "1 ITEM".

Given the number of people on this forum who have issues with employers and train tickets, it is clearly a big and widespread problem that really needs to be sorted (preferably by the rail industry).

 

[island]

Everybody has a camera phone now. If an employer won't accept a receipt and a photo of the actual ticket then that is a problem with the employer and not the railway.

 

[Brucey]

Everybody has a camera phone now. If an employer won't accept a receipt and a photo of the actual ticket then that is a problem with the employer and not the railway.

If a food retailer (for example) started giving receipts saying only "021 ITEMS" instead of actually listing what you've bought, that definitely wouldn't be acceptable to the taxman should they review a self employed person's accounts. Same principle for employees and rail tickets.

 

[bb21]

Everybody has a camera phone now.

No.

If an employer won't accept a receipt and a photo of the actual ticket then that is a problem with the employer and not the railway.

You are of course right, but burying the head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem is not going to help matters, especially when there are relatively simple solutions that can be implemented which would be beneficial to everyone.

 

[telstarbox]

My (private sector) employer requires the actual ticket, not even a photo or scan, because they need to keep a record for HMRC. So even if a receipt stated origin/destination/class it wouldn't be good enough.

 

[Hadders]

My (private sector) employer requires the actual ticket, not even a photo or scan, because they need to keep a record for HMRC. So even if a receipt stated origin/destination/class it wouldn't be good enough.

I think some employers hide behind 'HMRC' in the same was as organisations quote cry 'Health and Safety'.

My private sector employer complies with HMRC regulations and is happy to accept receipts and scans of them as well!

I do however think there's more the rail industry can do to make receipts clearer.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure it's been stated on here that HMRC doesn't need the original tickets. In fact, I'm sure you could verify that with HMRC as I am sure it wouldn't ask for something that many people would not actually have, given a ticket must be given up on demand.

 

[Tetchytyke]

My (private sector) employer requires the actual ticket, not even a photo or scan, because they need to keep a record for HMRC. So even if a receipt stated origin/destination/class it wouldn't be good enough.

I think your employer is misunderstanding the rules, either that or they are hiding behind "HMRC" as a reason for not changing their processes. Many employers do.

Receipts that show the services offered are sufficient, just as they are for any other product. When you buy dinner on subsistence expenses you provide a receipt, not the actual burger and fries, and train travel is no different.

The issue is that HR staff are used to seeing the ticket, and not used to seeing receipts, so they assume that receipts are not sufficient. They are, just as they are for any other service or product you receive.

HMRC understand that the train ticket remains the property of the rail industry.

 

[Haywain]

You are of course right, but burying the head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem is not going to help matters, especially when there are relatively simple solutions that can be implemented which would be beneficial to everyone.

But the people burying their heads in the sand are the employers, and the simple solution is to accept receipts, and use their ability to look up fares if they are not convinced that their employees are trustworthy. Or open an account with someone like Trainline so that they retain control of the spending.

 

[talldave]

I use printouts of the email confirmation Southern send me and my accountant hasn't complained. There's no VAT, after all, so that's one less complication to worry about.

And once I start using Southern's "key" smartcard, there'll be no interaction with a ticket machine at all.

In my experience, the larger the company, the more inexplicably inflexible they are. We're getting to a point where a printout of a QR code is the best they'll be able to expect, but even a smartcard bypasses that step.

 

[jon0844]

Sod smartcards. The future will be facial recognition. Once 'you' have a ticket allocated to your face, job done.

 

[maniacmartin]

The food analogy isn't that great. Some food such as confectionery is subject to VAT. Train tickets are not, so I doubt HMRC would take an interest in these receipts.

 

[button_boxer]

The food analogy isn't that great. Some food such as confectionery is subject to VAT. Train tickets are not, so I doubt HMRC would take an interest in these receipts.

It's not just the VAT element, it's verifying that the expenditure was indeed incurred for business reasons (making it a tax-deductible expense) rather than private.

 

[bangor-toad]

HMRC understand that the train ticket remains the property of the rail industry.

Maybe but EU stuff can over-rule HMRC...

I work on many EU funded projects and to get expenses paid you must produce the original receipt / ticket in the form it was originally produced in.

This means that if you buy a train ticket you have to produce the ticket to claim it. If it is printed on a thermal printer roll (as tickets are here in NI) then that's fine. If it's printed onto standard UK ticket stock you must produce both the outward and return ticket showing the trip, the date and the amount paid. If you took a photocopy of the ticket or took a colour photo of it that just wouldn't be acceptable.

(Interestingly if you buy a "print at home" style ticket then as the printout coming from your printer was the original you can just print out another for your expenses claim!)


The EU auditors do not care that the ticket is not your property - that is the rules that they follow and there's no variation. If an audit shows the tickets are missing and you've just produced the receipts then there's a problem.

If you want to get this changed then you'll need to get EU law, procurement and audit processes changed. Now that's really drifting off topic and into the realm of contentious politics!

In the meantime;
To those in my position:
Don't forget to keep your tickets.

To gate-line staff:
Sorry. I'm going to keep saying "Do you mind if I keep this ticket for expenses, please?"


Cheers,
Mr Toad

 

[Brucey]

Receipts that show the services offered are sufficient, just as they are for any other product. When you buy dinner on subsistence expenses you provide a receipt, not the actual burger and fries, and train travel is no different.

But the receipt shows you bought a burger and fries. A receipt from a TVM doesn't show what you bought.

My current employer is not accountable to HMRC. In fact, UK law does not apply to it in any way nor does it pay tax in any country. They still insist on actual tickets or getting them to pay for the ticket in advance using a corporate credit card.

 

[Hadders]

The degree of 'proof' required when reimbursing employees expenses is a matter for each individual employer (obviously there are some HMRC/accounting rules to follow but these are probably not as onerous as some make out).

Say an employee drives from London to Birmingham for a business meeting. The employee will submit a mileage claim but there won't be a receipt proving how many miles were driven. If the company wish to query this they will have to get a map out.

Let's say the same employee makes the same journey by train. A receipt is submitted for the cost of the travel. If the company wishes to query the amount paid then why can't they research it in the same way they would do so for a mileage claim?

 

[island]

If a food retailer (for example) started giving receipts saying only "021 ITEMS" instead of actually listing what you've bought, that definitely wouldn't be acceptable to the taxman should they review a self employed person's accounts. Same principle for employees and rail tickets.

VAT comes into play here. Food retailers are obliged to give VAT receipts (assuming at least one item on your receipt is VATable and the purchaser is or represents someone who's registered for VAT). There's no VAT on train tickets, so no requirement for an itemised VAT receipt.

I think some employers hide behind 'HMRC' in the same was as organisations quote cry 'Health and Safety'.

My private sector employer complies with HMRC regulations and is happy to accept receipts and scans of them as well!

This. A little research on HMRC's website shows this page, which says "where possible retain receipts from the employee to confirm the costs you're reimbursing". So not only does HMRC not require keeping the tickets, it doesn't even require a receipt if this isn't possible somehow. I agree with Haywain as well that employers are being inflexible in asking employees to give in something that isn't theirs in order to claim an expense.

 

[Starmill]

I've never understood why this can't simply be solved by saying to gateline staff that you need to keep your original ticket to claim delay compensation, or some other form of passenger's charter claim.

AFAIK, only original tickets (posted) or a scan/photocopy (if emailed, they may write back and ask you to post them though in my experience) thereof are accepted for these.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My current employer requires the actual ticket. There is a requirement for them to be able to show the actual stations travelled between, the fare paid and (importantly) that it was not in 1st class

Pass through the manned barrier and ask to retain it, then. I have never had this refused, though they usually tear it to ensure no re-use.

Neil

 

[northwichcat]

Pass through the manned barrier and ask to retain it, then. I have never had this refused, though they usually tear it to ensure no re-use.

Neil

All they need is a little stamping machine which stamps "EXIT" followed by the station code and date, which they can then stamp any ticket they allow through manually.

 

[DeeGee]

Forgetting receipts for expenses claims...

What do I need to send to a TOC to claim Delay Repay?