New platforms for Liverpool Lime Street

[lfc2014uk]

According to a reliable source Liverpool Lime Street platform 6A (siding) will be brought back into full intercity service use from 2014/15 and will be renamed platform 7. Todays platforms 7,8,9 will be renamed 8,9,10.

This is in response to the upgrade and electrification of the Liverpool - Wigan/Manchester Line.

MerseyTravel have also held talks with TPE and Virgin on new services from Liverpool to Scotland from Jan 2015 once the electrification and new track and platforms at Roby & Huyton have been completed allowing high speed express trains to pass local commuter trains.

 

[northofthesand]

According to a reliable source Liverpool Lime Street platform 6A (siding) will be brought back into full intercity service use from 2014/15 and will be renamed platform 7. Todays platforms 7,8,9 will be renamed 8,9,10.

This is in response to the upgrade and electrification of the Liverpool - Wigan/Manchester Line.

MerseyTravel have also held talks with TPE and Virgin on new services from Liverpool to Scotland from Jan 2015 once the electrification and new track and platforms at Roby & Huyton have been completed allowing high speed express trains to pass local commuter trains.

Well over due a direct service from Liverpool to Scotland

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Well over due a direct service from Liverpool to Scotland

Have not the existing number of new electric units to run the existing First TPE services to Scotland already been allocated to the existing routes or is it envisaged that a reduction in the services from the Manchester area will allow new services to run from Liverpool.

 

[Eagle]

Looking at a track diagram, would the new platform be what is currently siding E (the track adjacent to the p7 line)?

 

[lfc2014uk]

Yes (ie the track on the left of p7)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The existing TPE 185's that are running between Manchester - Scotland now will be transferred to new Liverpool - Newcastle hourly service in may 2014 once TPE take delivery of the new 350/4s (same as what London Midland are using)

 

[8A Rail]

That is interesting as the platform space for that particular road is tight due to the double pillars of the station roof being very close to the existing edge of that road. Will be interesting to see how they create a safe platform area for the passengers. I wonder if Platform "0" would be a better option, next to Platform 1 and move the buildings over or disappear altogther as the space there to create an extra platform but would incur additional costs due to needing to insert pointwork at that particular entry.

 

[TheGrew]

How about this for a Manchester/Liverpool-Scotland Service Pattern (Assuming ICWC don't get Manchester-Scotland).

Manchester and Liverpool to Wigan (2 Separate 4 car units)
Wigan to Carstairs (Single 8 Car)
Carstairs to Glasgow and Edinburgh (2 Separate 4 car units)

I doubt splitting and joining in service would be an issue for the 350s (SWT do it all the time with 444s/450s) and it would allow an hourly service between the 4 end destinations whilst only using a single path between Wigan and Carstairs.

 

[gordonthemoron]

How about this for a Manchester/Liverpool-Scotland Service Pattern (Assuming ICWC don't get Manchester-Scotland).

Manchester and Liverpool to Wigan (2 Separate 4 car units)
Wigan to Carstairs (Single 8 Car)
Carstairs to Glasgow and Edinburgh (2 Separate 4 car units)

I doubt splitting and joining in service would be an issue for the 350s (SWT do it all the time with 444s/450s) and it would allow an hourly service between the 4 end destinations whilst only using a single path between Wigan and Carstairs.

But passengers may have to move between the two train sections to be in the correct part for their destination. How will they cope? :roll:

 

[SkinnyDave]

I'd be very suprised if ICWC franchise didn't get this and Manchester to Scotland routes

 

[tbtc]

Have not the existing number of new electric units to run the existing First TPE services to Scotland already been allocated to the existing routes or is it envisaged that a reduction in the services from the Manchester area will allow new services to run from Liverpool.

The 350/4s have always been intended as a short term "solution" for the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh service.

We don't yet know what units will run the service in the longer term (or even which TOC will run the service).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The 350/4s have always been intended as a short term "solution" for the Manchester - Glasgow/Edinburgh service.

We don't yet know what units will run the service in the longer term (or even which TOC will run the service).

I made my posting in response to the very first posting on the thread that stated that MerseyTravel have already held talks with both First TPE and with Virgin about the provision of Liverpool to Scotland services from January 2015.

As these talks have already been held, it is only fair that comment on them can be made.

 

[ian1944]

How about this for a Manchester/Liverpool-Scotland Service Pattern (Assuming ICWC don't get Manchester-Scotland).

Manchester and Liverpool to Wigan (2 Separate 4 car units)
Wigan to Carstairs (Single 8 Car)
Carstairs to Glasgow and Edinburgh (2 Separate 4 car units)

I doubt splitting and joining in service would be an issue for the 350s (SWT do it all the time with 444s/450s) and it would allow an hourly service between the 4 end destinations whilst only using a single path between Wigan and Carstairs.

I did this a couple of times in the 50s, with Preston as the southern split/join point, but have no idea how long this E/G/L/M pattern survived. Nor do I recall whether or not both locos travelled on the combined section, though it seems likely with Shap and Beattock to surmount.

 

[Dunc108]

How about this for a Manchester/Liverpool-Scotland Service Pattern (Assuming ICWC don't get Manchester-Scotland).

Manchester and Liverpool to Wigan (2 Separate 4 car units)
Wigan to Carstairs (Single 8 Car)
Carstairs to Glasgow and Edinburgh (2 Separate 4 car units)

I doubt splitting and joining in service would be an issue for the 350s (SWT do it all the time with 444s/450s) and it would allow an hourly service between the 4 end destinations whilst only using a single path between Wigan and Carstairs.

I can't remember the last time a Liverpool - Scotland ran, it must have been mid-late 1990's? I do have a pic somewhere of Glasgow/Edinburgh - Liverpool/Manchester operated by 2x158s, these must have combined/split at Carstairs just like the old days... Whether or not it would be done at Carstairs again, I have no idea, maybe Carlisle might be another choice?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well over due a direct service from Liverpool to Scotland

Couldn't agree more.

 

[northofthesand]

I can't remember the 158's but did a loco hauled Liverpool-Edinburgh service run late 80's early 90's ?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I can't remember the 158's but did a loco hauled Liverpool-Edinburgh service run late 80's early 90's ?

The British Rail 1981/2 timetable (Table 65...Monday to Friday) came up with an example of what you mention, but at the start of that decade.

0737...Liverpool Lime Street
0819...Wigan North Western
0840...Preston
0910...Lancaster
0927...Oxenholme
0955...Penrith
1021...Carlisle
1042...Lockerbie
1123...Carstairs
1207...Haymarket
1210...Edinburgh Waverley

 

[northofthesand]

The British Rail 1981/2 timetable (Table 65...Monday to Friday) came up with an example of what you mention, but at the start of that decade.

0737...Liverpool Lime Street
0819...Wigan North Western
0840...Preston
0910...Lancaster
0927...Oxenholme
0955...Penrith
1021...Carlisle
1042...Lockerbie
1123...Carstairs
1207...Haymarket
1210...Edinburgh Waverley

Thanks Paul

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The British Rail 1981/2 timetable (Table 65...Monday to Friday) came up with an example of what you mention, but at the start of that decade.

0737...Liverpool Lime Street
0819...Wigan North Western
0840...Preston
0910...Lancaster
0927...Oxenholme
0955...Penrith
1021...Carlisle
1042...Lockerbie
1123...Carstairs
1207...Haymarket
1210...Edinburgh Waverley

Wow...

21 minutes Wigan-Preston?
30 minutes Preston-Lancaster?
17 minutes Lancaster-Oxenholme?

I don't know if those timings are typical for the early 1980s, but if so, that rather dramatically shows how much that line has speeded up!

 

[Eagle]

Direct Liverpool to Scotland services survived until 2003, I think, when Virgin XC withdrew from Liverpool completely.

 

[Dunc108]

I vaguely remember catching a 2-car 158 at Lime Street and it was the 17.00 to Edinburgh, it must have been the remnant of the XC Virgin services & they were utilising some 158s until Voyagers came on stream. I have a feeling this was a return working of a morning through service although I'm not sure if the 158 operated any other services in between diagrams or stabled at Edge Hill?

 

[DJH1971]

Well over due a direct service from Liverpool to Scotland

And yet there used to be one (Liverpool to Edinburgh) that ran until the mid/late 1990's.

 

[snowball]

Wow...

21 minutes Wigan-Preston?
30 minutes Preston-Lancaster?
17 minutes Lancaster-Oxenholme?

I don't know if those timings are typical for the early 1980s, but if so, that rather dramatically shows how much that line has speeded up!

That was before Carstairs to Edinburgh was electrified. Do those figures include loco changes at Preston and Carstairs?

 

[p.d87]

I vaguely remember catching a 2-car 158 at Lime Street and it was the 17.00 to Edinburgh, it must have been the remnant of the XC Virgin services & they were utilising some 158s until Voyagers came on stream. I have a feeling this was a return working of a morning through service although I'm not sure if the 158 operated any other services in between diagrams or stabled at Edge Hill?

I am pretty certain that there was a morning working from Edinburgh to Liverpool using a 158 which then formed another XC service to Portsmouth. The 1700 service from Liverpool to Edinburgh utilised an inbound 158 from the south coast arriving late afternoon.yMy memory isn't the greatest so if anyone can confirm or correct this please do. There were a few Virgin XC services including Scotland to Manchester that used class 158 dmu.

 

[DJH1971]

I am pretty certain that there was a morning working from Edinburgh to Liverpool using a 158 which then formed another XC service to Portsmouth. The 1700 service from Liverpool to Edinburgh utilised an inbound 158 from the south coast arriving late afternoon.yMy memory isn't the greatest so if anyone can confirm or correct this please do. There were a few Virgin XC services including Scotland to Manchester that used class 158 dmu.

They did use 158's, although up to about 1994 or 1995 they were loco-hauled, often with a Res liveried 47 between Liverpool and Preston (it also stopped at St Helens Central), then electric hauled from Preston onwards.

 

[tbtc]

Direct Liverpool to Scotland services survived until 2003, I think, when Virgin XC withdrew from Liverpool completely.

IIRC there were some Cross Country services that went *via* Liverpool - i.e. Glasgow - Wigan - Liverpool - Crewe - Birmingham (Portsmouth) - quite a delay for longer distance passengers, but did at least give some people a direct train if they wanted a "scenic" route

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That was before Carstairs to Edinburgh was electrified. Do those figures include loco changes at Preston and Carstairs?

Table 65, being in the standard British Rail 1st June 1981 to 16th May 1982 timetable, at what seems an incredibly low price of only £2.90 and 1280pp plus 4pp card cover, was not noted for making such technical footnotes for the edification of the reader.

 

[30907]

No, and nor does the 1980 Cook's which comes quickest to hand but
- the train stands for 7 minutes at Preston and then runs in the same point to point timings as Euston services so it's very unlikely it was diesel hauled throughout. Almost certainly booked Class 81-85 and only 6-7 coaches.

It wasn't a portioned working BTW, and there was a Manchester Scot 5 minutes later. It also omitted Wigan, but that was covered by the Crewe-Lancaster slow a few minutes earlier, with 4-5 Mk I's which then went to Barrow.

Fascinating stuff - I'd only remembered the M-G+L-E combined workings, and it turns out there was only one - evening north, morning south.

Amazing what you forget.

 

[snowball]

I used to make Manchester-Edinburgh journeys fairly often for a few years up to autumn 1975 and they were all loco-hauled, as were trains from any of Birmingham, Manchester or Liverpool to Glasgow or Edinburgh. From electrification they used electrics on the main line and changed locos as necessary at Preston or Carstairs. For major stations like Preston I think the timetable used to show both arrival and departure times so you could deduce a change of traction from a long stay. If only a departure time is shown it may be possible to deduce a change of traction by comparing times for the journey from the previous station to that station with another train that is likely to have unchanging traction.

Immediately after the completion of electrification there used to be a pair of morning trains, M-G and L-E, with a cross-platform change at Preston. The M-G used then modern Mk2f stock and was one of two sets with matched diagrams. One would do Man Vic - Glasgow - Euston - Man Pic in a day while the other did the opposite.

 

[Dunc108]

Would have been interesting comparing timings between Liverpool Exchange - Glasgow/Edinburgh & Liverpool Lime Street - Glasgow/or Edinburgh. They must have reached Preston quicker coming via Ormskirk than via St Helens & Wigan as from Exchange they worked relatively non-stop (I think Ormskirk was the only scheduled stop between Liverpool Exchange & Preston).

 

[Bevan Price]

Would have been interesting comparing timings between Liverpool Exchange - Glasgow/Edinburgh & Liverpool Lime Street - Glasgow/or Edinburgh. They must have reached Preston quicker coming via Ormskirk than via St Helens & Wigan as from Exchange they worked relatively non-stop (I think Ormskirk was the only scheduled stop between Liverpool Exchange & Preston).

Example, summer period 1967:
Liverpool Exchange 09:00
Preston 09:34 - 09:40
Lancaster 10:03 (pick up only)
Carlisle 11:21 - 11:24
Carstairs 12:42
Motherwell 13:04 (set down)
Glasgow Central 13:30

Outside the summer period, it combined with the 09:00 from Manchester Victoria at Preston, timings

Preston 09:50 (pick up only)
Lancaster 10:14 (pick up)
Carlisle 11:32 - 11:37
Lockerbie 12:03 - 12:04
Beattock 12:18
Carstairs 13:03
Motherwell 13:26
Glasgow Central 13:50

Edinburgh portion arrived 13:50


1974 (first timetable, electrification to Glasgow)
Liverpool Lime St 07:48
Wigan NW 08:24
Preston 08:43 - 08:56 (change diesel to electric)
Lancaster 09:15
Carlisle 10:11 - 10:13
Lockerbie 10:34
Carstairs 11:10
Haymarket 11:50
Edinburgh 11:54
(No Glasgow portion - 6 minute connection at Preston onto 07:53 Manchester Victoria - Glasgow Central, arrive Glasgow 11:22 )

So, Liverppol to Preston became about 20-30 mins. slower after diversion from Liverpool Exchange to Lime Street.

 

[Gareth]

According to a reliable source Liverpool Lime Street platform 6A (siding) will be brought back into full intercity service use from 2014/15 and will be renamed platform 7. Todays platforms 7,8,9 will be renamed 8,9,10.

Can you not share this source, because I'm rather sceptical? Having read this thread earlier, I went and took a good look at this siding this evening, assuming that '6A' is the one immediately adjacent to Platform 7. It just ain't happening. At least, not without large scale engineering works. There are pillars at regular intervals with virtually no clearance between them and the platform edge. It isn't practical. Removing the columns would be difficult because they prop up both of the shed rooves. The only way I can see it being done would be to lift the tracks and fill in the siding so it becomes the new Platform 7. Then, a new Platform 8 could be built to the south of that, eating into the large area that was the taxi rank. To be honest though, if new platforms are needed, it might actually be less hassle to remove the current taxi rank at the far south of the southern shed and reinstate the two platforms that once existed there. Another idea would be to revive the Edge Hill Spur scheme and divert some of the soon-to-be electrified commuter services into the Merseyrail underground system, releasing some strain off Lime Street and the approach between it and Edge Hill.