New platform and 60 extra carriages for Waterloo commuters

[philjo]

on DfT website:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/news/press-releases/new-platform-and-60-extra-carriages-for-waterloo-commuters

New platform and 60 extra carriages for Waterloo commuters

Passengers on some of the country’s busiest rail routes are set to benefit from extra carriages to ease overcrowding and the former Waterloo International Station is to be reopened for commuter services, Transport Secretary Justine Greening announced today.

The 60 extra carriages are being added thanks to Government funding for South West Trains to lease the vehicles. Their arrival will mean that services from Windsor, Weybridge (via Staines), Portsmouth, Southampton, Eastleigh, Reading, Hounslow and Alton into Waterloo can be lengthened and additional services will also run from Reading. Their deployment will mean that platform 20 at the former Waterloo International Terminal will come back into use from 2014.

The carriages - which will allow around 8,000 extra peak-time passengers into Waterloo every morning - will begin arriving from May 2013, with all new services in place by July 2014.

Justine Greening said:

“Passengers travelling into Waterloo have to suffer some of the busiest trains in the country, with sardine-can like conditions on many peak-time services."

"These extra carriages will help ease those conditions, while opening an extra platform will provide space for additional trains to run. But our plans do not stop here. We are now embarked on one of the largest programmes of rail investment since the Victorian era and we expect to introduce further carriages on Waterloo routes and bring more platforms into use in the future."

Network Rail is continuing to progress plans to make further use of Waterloo and Waterloo International to cope with future demand.


Notes for editors

The additional carriages will enable trains on the following routes to be lengthened from 8 to 10 cars: Waterloo-Windsor & Eton (Riverside), Waterloo-Weybridge via Brentford and Staines, Waterloo-Hounslow via both Richmond and Brentford. This will be achieved through the introduction of 60 Class 460 vehicles.
An internal cascade will provide two additional Reading and one further Hounslow peak service into Waterloo; and further lengthen seven South West mainline services. South West Trains expect to complete the rolling stock deployment by July 2014, with the first 10-car service operating from May 2013.

The seven mainline services SWT expect to be strengthened are as follows:
Morning peak
Southampton Airport Parkway to Waterloo (8 car to 12 car in high peak)
Portsmouth Harbour to Waterloo via Eastleigh (5 car to 10 car in the peak)
Southampton Central to Waterloo (4 car to 5 car in the peak)
Evening peak
Waterloo to Poole (5 car to 8 car)
Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (5 car to 8 car)
Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour via Eastleigh (8 car to 10 car)
Waterloo to Alton (8 car to 12 car)

 

[cjohnson]

...and platform 20 at Waterloo (international) to come back into use.

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/extracapacity.aspx

 

[Matt Taylor]

Never saw that coming at all.:roll: Presumably the Windsor/Weybridge/Hounslow services will be 5 or 10 car 458s and the HC 450s will revert to their original specification for the Readings.

 

[Schnellzug]

60 extra carriages? Would this be the former Gatwick Express class 460s, or is this actually some new stock?

8000 extra peak-time passengers? That equates to 133 (.3) passengers per carriage. We shall just have to hope that they know what they're doing.

 

[philjo]

It only mentions using platfrom 20 at Waterloo from 2014 - nothing is mentioned about using 21-24.

 

[theblackwatch]

Does this mean four of the Class 460 cars are to be binned? (There are eight sets formed of 8 vehicles.)

 

[Schnellzug]

It only mentions using platfrom 20 at Waterloo from 2014 - nothing is mentioned about using 21-24.

Maybe they've decided to keep it as a theatre full-time, as it makes more money.

 

[tempests1]

Interesting I heard rumblings a while ago that South Eastern were going to send some peak time trains off the VIR line into Waterloo International but obviously this idea has been discounted.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does this mean four of the Class 460 cars are to be binned? (There are eight sets formed of 8 vehicles.)

This was the idea in the original plan that Modern Railways described a while back. They reckoned it only needed 12 cabs for the 6 additional units being cobbled together.

What 60 vehicles does mean is that 460 luggage vehicles must be capable of conversion, a few people had thought none of those end cars would be used.

Platform 20 is adequate to deal with the limited number (3) of extra services - a couple of other international platforms will probably only become needed when the existing P1 and P2 are closed for the 10 car main suburban lengthening, which is due later.

 

[Electrostar]

So after much speculation it's finally happening. 60 460 "units" coming across to SWT. Each of the 30 458s gain a carriage from the 460s. There are eight 460s in total, so I guess that means some power cars/carriages won't be converted.

There has also been speculation previously that both the 458s and 460s will Desiro-style ends, although I understand Alstom and Siemens are different companies so I don't know how that works. I guess it means we're going to see the back of the Darth Vader nose cone and possibly the flat front of the 458s with its "state-of-the-art" gangway connectors that never quite worked.

 

[NSEFAN]

Maybe they've decided to keep it as a theatre full-time, as it makes more money.

Hopefully one day all the disused platforms in the Eurostar terminal will see real railway use again. Whilst they could technically do it now, International Junction will need some serious remodelling to optimise the usage and number of paths. I understand that the "short" main suburban platforms will be extended at some point in the future, but whether this involves remodelling of track work or not is another matter.

Maybe there would even be the possibility of removing the Nine Elms Junction - Linford Street Junction flyover, since this is now redundant and would allow for a down Windsor line to be reinstated on that section?

It would indeed be a sad state of affairs if the theatre makes more profit for Network Rail than SWT using the platforms.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting I heard rumblings a while ago that South Eastern were going to send some peak time trains off the VIR line into Waterloo International but obviously this idea has been discounted.

It was a proposal a few years back, in the early Thameslink schemes for use during the redevelopment at London Bridge, but they eventually worked out that SE services would not be curtailed at any stage, (although some will run through London Bridge non-stop).

One of the RUSs (South London) gives a few reasons why it isn't practical anyway, basically there are not really any spare paths to get to the flyover.

 

[tbtc]

8000 extra peak-time passengers? That equates to 133 (.3) passengers per carriage. We shall just have to hope that they know what they're doing.

Presumably the short journey time of some of these services (e.g. Windsor) means that more than one arrival/departure can be lengthened by the same coaches during the rush hours (so the same "additional" coach can count "double"), if that makes sense

 

[swt_passenger]

So after much speculation it's finally happening. 60 460 "units" coming across to SWT. Each of the 30 458s gain a carriage from the 460s. There are eight 460s in total, so I guess that means some power cars/carriages won't be converted.

Since posting above I dug out some old stuff that reckoned that only 24 x 458s will be lengthened, and 6 additional 5 car units would be made up from the 460s. The problem is that the relative numbers of cabs, motor cars and trailer cars doesn't divide up easily, 458s and 460s have different motor bogie positions, IYSWIM.

This was also intended to leave 6 x 4 car 458s to be dedicated to the Ascot Guildford route, releasing a couple of 450s.

No doubt the exact vehicle by vehicle details will appear over the next few months. As I mentioned in another thread, I again wonder if the work could be done at Bournemouth? This could explain a couple of 460s moving down there recently.

 

[hmp455]

I thought SWT is to get the 456s from Southern.

 

[swt_passenger]

I thought SWT is to get the 456s from Southern.

They probably will, as it is mentioned in NR's enhancement plans, but when that happens it will be to operate 10 car suburban trains on the main line side, basically most of the 455 operated services. I expect that would be a separate announcement at a later date, as the mainline side platform lengthening project is running two years behind the Windsor side...

 

[Schnellzug]

I thought SWT is to get the 456s from Southern.

That might be useful, as they're compatible with 455s, and maybe they might be able to do something to improve the front end appearance as well.

 

[BestWestern]

That might be useful, as they're compatible with 455s, and maybe they might be able to do something to improve the front end appearance as well.

Surely you're not suggesting that Class 456s are unattractive, are you..?!

 

[4SRKT]

What do Southern use the 456s for apart from the Victoria > London Bridge service? How many sets are there?

 

[swt_passenger]

What do Southern use the 456s for apart from the Victoria > London Bridge service? How many sets are there?

24 sets, so only enough to increase about half of SWT's 455 services to 10 car, so I don't think it will be the whole solution.

There are 22 daily diagams for the 24 units. They are used over most of the Metro area, many run in multiple with 455s in various combinations, eg 4+2 or 4+2+2.

Destinations form Victoria or London Bridge include Epsom, Sutton, West Croydon, Crystal Palace, Horsham, Tattenham Corner - to name a few...

 

[cjohnson]

24 sets, so only enough to increase about half of SWT's 455 services to 10 car, so I don't think it will be the whole solution.

There are 22 daily diagams for the 24 units. They are used over most of the Metro area, many run in multiple with 455s in various combinations, eg 4+2 or 4+2+2.

Recently I've been seeing 2+4+2 combinations (the 455 sandwiched in the middle) which is a tad peculiar!

 

[wintonian]

See also this FOI request, though its really just a summary of the press release.

 

[swt_passenger]

See also this FOI request, though it really just a summary of the press release.

Was that your own question?

Turns out not, so I don't think the author has phrased it too well. By referring to SWT's 2009 proposal, I think it has allowed them to concentrate on rolling stock issues only. But even then, SWT's original ITT was for 120 - 160 vehicles, presumably reflecting the HLOS proposal which totalled 140 vehicles, and covered the main line side suburban routes as well.

So there's a big gap between the HLOS figures, and today's 60 vehicles.

If you wanted an answer about international platforms, I guess they could have just referred to the October update to the NR CP4 enhancement plan though, which still has P1 and P2 at Waterloo being closed, and equivalent capacity being provided on the interntional side.

Furthermore the above document clearly refers to using 455s and 456s in multiple on the main suburban routes - so why haven't the DfT anything to say about that?

 

[wintonian]

Was that your own question?

If so I don't think you have phrased it too well. By referring to SWT's 2009 proposal, I think it has allowed them to concentrate on rolling stock issues only. But even then, SWT's original ITT was for 120 - 160 vehicles, presumably reflecting the HLOS proposal which totalled 140 vehicles, and covered the main line side suburban routes as well.

So there's a big gap between the HLOS figures, and today's 60 vehicles.

If you wanted an answer about international platforms, I guess they could have just referred to the October update to the NR CP4 enhancement plan though, which still has P1 and P2 at Waterloo being closed, and equivalent capacity being provided on the interntional side.

Furthermore the above document clearly refers to using 455s and 456s in multiple on the main suburban routes - so why haven't the DfT anything to say about that?

No I didn't ask that one, just fell into it whilst looking at some other DfT ones.

Oh I have just read it properly and see why you might think it was me, but alas purely a coincidence.

 

[Helvellyn]

Sixty vehicles sounds like strengthening the 30 4-car 458s to 5-car units, and then 6 5-car 460 units making 36 5-car units (Class ?), with 4 driving vehicles left over. I assume this will be four luggage vehicles, and will likely be scrapped. Taking th passenger doors from these four vehicles will provide the passenger doors to replace the roller shutters on the other four luggage cars! I fully expect new cabs as part of the rebuilds, as SWT will want the ability to operate 5-car and 10-car units with ease, unlike now where the 458s are semi-permanently coupled together for 8-car operation.

My final hunch is that the 460s will be rebuilt first with some testing/training, before a squadron rebuild of the 458s begins. In addition, this would allow the 458s to be withdrawn say 4 at a time for rebuild work, possibly with 2 450HC units been converted back to standard formations at the same time.

 

[33011]

I heard that one of the 456's if SWT do get them will be on the Lymington Branch

 

[swt_passenger]

I heard that one of the 456's if SWT do get them will be on the Lymington Branch

Extremely unlikely if the purpose is to strenghten suburban services to ten car...

 

[northwichcat]

There are 64 x Class 460 vehicles and 60 vehicles are mentioned. Does this mean 4 driving vehicles are to be put in to storage?

If that is the case could SWT not use two of them as a 2 car train for the Lymington Branch or could additional compatible middle carriages be built for the 4 driving cars?

 

[Goldfish62]

An early Christmas present for us on the Reading line.

The long expected announcement of the banishing of the Junipers to the inner suburban, where they'll be more suited, but the unexpected announcement of two extra trains in each peak!

 

[jopsuk]

It was suggested further up that it is likely that the four "spare" will lose their passenger doors to donate to the four DMLFO's that need them to replace the luggage doors- along with other passenger cabin fittings, though probably not the 1st class seats what them going for suburban use. The motor bogies might also be needed to ensure that the units have the right ratio. I guess anything else usable from them will be scavenged and put on the parts racks. I'd reckon all that will be left could maybe be put together to form a pair of un-powered two car luggage units capable only of working with the 458s- not much use!