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New Petition For Manchester Piccadilly Platforms 15/16

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Jozhua

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Hello all!

Probably not great timing to ask for new infrastructure to deal with record passenger numbers, but I hopped on the petitions site as soon as it opened, with a previous unsuccessful attempt at getting this petition moving.

Been as you're all at home, if you support trying to resolve the terrible Castlefield congestion, if you could share it round to other interested parties, that would be greatly appreciated!

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/301122
 
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GRALISTAIR

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I'm being guarded on this at the moment. There may be a justification to cancel it if the money is needed to keep the economy afloat. Same with HS2.
Same here. I am also not 100% convinced that if this was done that the bottleneck would just move about a mile away.
 

Bletchleyite

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bbc news report on overcrowding
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-en...piccadilly-tackling-overcrowding-on-platforms
proves the case for new platforms

In normal times the case exists. However, if this virus goes on a long time, we are going to have to rethink because we are going to spend billions on propping the country up. Many thousands of people are going to prove what the naysayers said couldn't happen - home-working is viable for pretty much all office workers at least some days of the week. This is going to change everything - in a good way.
 

Bantamzen

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In normal times the case exists. However, if this virus goes on a long time, we are going to have to rethink because we are going to spend billions on propping the country up. Many thousands of people are going to prove what the naysayers said couldn't happen - home-working is viable for pretty much all office workers at least some days of the week. This is going to change everything - in a good way.

Hmm, viable you say.... Looks at Skype For Business wobbling like crazy.... Constant VPN drop-offs.... Work Network with more people working remotely falling apart....

In theory maybe, but in practice not so much. Its way too soon to start ditching infrastructure projects, the money from the crisis needs to come from elsewhere.
 

Bletchleyite

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Hmm, viable you say.... Looks at Skype For Business wobbling like crazy.... Constant VPN drop-offs.... Work Network with more people working remotely falling apart....

All solvable. IT infrastructure is really easy to add.

Of course there are going to be challenges when probably over a million people start working from home on the same day. Can you imagine if they all showed up at their local station and tried to go to London for 9am having never done so before?

In theory maybe, but in practice not so much. Its way too soon to start ditching infrastructure projects, the money from the crisis needs to come from elsewhere.

I disagree. Road and rail infrastructure projects are an easy lop.
 

Bantamzen

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All solvable. IT infrastructure is really easy to add.

Easy to add, but not cheap. And to be most effective the infrastructure needs to be sorted at both ends. No point of having a multi-GB network at one end if staff are working with a tin can & string at t'other. Of course this assumes that these services can all be delivered remotely in the first place....

Of course there are going to be challenges when probably over a million people start working from home on the same day. Can you imagine if they all showed up at their local station and tried to go to London for 9am having never done so before?

Challenges is putting it mildly, I often work from home these days but the last 2 days have been near impossible to get any serious dev work done. Frankly much more of this and I will have to head for the office.

I disagree. Road and rail infrastructure projects are an easy lop.

Oh they are easy, that doesn't mean they should be. Like I said, this current crisis should be paid for above and beyond current budgets. There's plenty of money sploshing about, the government just need to grow a pair and change a few tax laws as an emergency measure. But that's for another thread.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Oh they are easy, that doesn't mean they should be. Like I said, this current crisis should be paid for above and beyond current budgets. There's plenty of money sploshing about, the government just need to grow a pair and change a few tax laws as an emergency measure. But that's for another thread.

Quantitive easing?
 

Purple Orange

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In normal times the case exists. However, if this virus goes on a long time, we are going to have to rethink because we are going to spend billions on propping the country up. Many thousands of people are going to prove what the naysayers said couldn't happen - home-working is viable for pretty much all office workers at least some days of the week. This is going to change everything - in a good way.

But this already happens. A majority of office workers work from home one day a week and I the most I can see that dial shifting is perhaps going to two days per week. The emphasis on face-to-face engagement with colleagues and clients can’t be underestimated. As I’ve said before, this also includes video conference meetings between offices, which can be arranged at an impromptu moment. Another aspect these next few weeks and months may show is how productivity will change, which could make some employers conclude that homeworking is not efficient.

I believe homeworking is a good thing, but only one day a week at best. So therefore the emphasis on building public transport infrastructure can’t be eased, and it will be required to help kickstart the economy.
 

Jozhua

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There's still many people who work in the service sector or travel for family/friends to, from or through Manchester.

Frankly, public transport is there as an alternative to driving, one we desperately need in the fight against climate change. If we have learnt anything from this situation, it's that we need to act better on exisensial worldwide threats, even if perhaps the benefits may not be seen today. That's why Bill Gates was pushing for years to get governments to prepare healthcare for pandemics and continues to push for better response to climate change.

Bringing the situation back to platforms 15/16 at Manchester, this project is a relatively small spend compared to HS2 or NPR. However, it promises to greatly improve reliability, accessibility, safety on top of facilitating growth in capacity. The project may be £500m, but that's one of the most sensible £500m spends I can think of in regards to any infrastructure.
 

Jozhua

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But this already happens. A majority of office workers work from home one day a week and I the most I can see that dial shifting is perhaps going to two days per week. The emphasis on face-to-face engagement with colleagues and clients can’t be underestimated. As I’ve said before, this also includes video conference meetings between offices, which can be arranged at an impromptu moment. Another aspect these next few weeks and months may show is how productivity will change, which could make some employers conclude that homeworking is not efficient.

I believe homeworking is a good thing, but only one day a week at best. So therefore the emphasis on building public transport infrastructure can’t be eased, and it will be required to help kickstart the economy.

Homeworking is okay, but yeah, I totally agree with this, I highly doubt things will change completely.

At the end of the day, we're social creatures, we like offices, pubs, clubs, cafes, shops, parks and meeting up, etc.

Homeworking 1-2 days, office for 3 is probably more efficient, but 5 day home working I doubt will be more beneficial.

Capacity is already so constrained on Castlefield many purposefully avoid it (drive, take different less convenient route, travel outside peak hours), so as soon as some commuters work at home a bit more, the station will quickly fill up with new passengers who couldn't previously physically fit in the station!
 

railfan100

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I petition Manchester Victoria has increased capacity e.g. MEN gone, and put the clock back to 1992 when Manchester had more rail capacity in terms of infrastructure compared to what it has today....
 

Bletchleyite

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I petition Manchester Victoria has increased capacity e.g. MEN gone, and put the clock back to 1992 when Manchester had more rail capacity in terms of infrastructure compared to what it has today....

If the new Arena at Eastlands causes the Nynex[1] to fail, that would present a golden opportunity to flatten the lot and rebuild Victoria as a proper second Manchester Hauptbahnhof, with perhaps 8 400m through platforms, proper facilities and a nice impressive overall roof. A more modern version of Leeds with a nicer concourse would be the kind of thing I'd envisage.

[1] Showing my age there :D
 

railfan100

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that would present a golden opportunity to flatten the lot and rebuild Victoria as a proper second Manchester Hauptbahnhof

It was a proper second station until the 'strategic transport planning' in the late 80's early 90's spoiled it and caused years of problems and delays. Directing pennine services via the slower route to Piccadilly in 1989 was madness and should never have been implemented. Then service after service moved to a full Piccadilly caused nothing but problems whilst it provided the flawed chance to sell a large amount of Victoria off for a quick buck. The current issue was self inflicted by reducing the cities rail capacity....
 

tbtc

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Bringing the situation back to platforms 15/16 at Manchester, this project is a relatively small spend compared to HS2 or NPR. However, it promises to greatly improve reliability, accessibility, safety on top of facilitating growth in capacity. The project may be £500m, but that's one of the most sensible £500m spends I can think of in regards to any infrastructure.

Well, I guess everything is a lot cheaper than a high speed line from London to northern England, but what value for money will 15/16 provide?

We'd only use the additional capacity to fit more short trains through Castlefield, e.g. the proposed Bradford - Manchester Airport service - since we are addicted to trying to provide a direct link from everywhere to everywhere else, meaning a mess of hourly services that try to cram through the Castlefield corridor.

A couple of extra platforms at Piccadilly will certainly improve things a bit (assuming we don't then try to squeeze more services through it), but there'd still be all of the flat junctions at each end (e.g. a Cleethorpes service trying to get onto the Airport branch whilst a service from Liverpool/Blackpool/Southport tries to get over to the Stockport lines)

And then, if you're going to have more Airport services then you'll need to add in the cost of additional platform space at the Airport (since there isn't enough at the moment to permit everything to lay over, hence TPE dropping three carriages of the Cleethorpes service at Piccadilly) - where will it end?

Don't get me wrong, it'd be better to do it than not do it, but hundreds of millions of pounds is a lot of money to spend when there are other ways of improving reliability (e.g. removing a couple of direct services through Castlefield each hour, like splitting the Liverpool - Crewe service)
 

Shaw S Hunter

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If the new Arena at Eastlands causes the Nynex[1] to fail, that would present a golden opportunity to flatten the lot and rebuild Victoria as a proper second Manchester Hauptbahnhof, with perhaps 8 400m through platforms, proper facilities and a nice impressive overall roof. A more modern version of Leeds with a nicer concourse would be the kind of thing I'd envisage.

[1] Showing my age there :D

Don't feel bad. Many traincrew still refer to last departures from Victoria as Nynex specials!
 

Jozhua

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Well, I guess everything is a lot cheaper than a high speed line from London to northern England, but what value for money will 15/16 provide?

We'd only use the additional capacity to fit more short trains through Castlefield, e.g. the proposed Bradford - Manchester Airport service - since we are addicted to trying to provide a direct link from everywhere to everywhere else, meaning a mess of hourly services that try to cram through the Castlefield corridor.

A couple of extra platforms at Piccadilly will certainly improve things a bit (assuming we don't then try to squeeze more services through it), but there'd still be all of the flat junctions at each end (e.g. a Cleethorpes service trying to get onto the Airport branch whilst a service from Liverpool/Blackpool/Southport tries to get over to the Stockport lines)

And then, if you're going to have more Airport services then you'll need to add in the cost of additional platform space at the Airport (since there isn't enough at the moment to permit everything to lay over, hence TPE dropping three carriages of the Cleethorpes service at Piccadilly) - where will it end?

Don't get me wrong, it'd be better to do it than not do it, but hundreds of millions of pounds is a lot of money to spend when there are other ways of improving reliability (e.g. removing a couple of direct services through Castlefield each hour, like splitting the Liverpool - Crewe service)

I would agree the extra capacity shouldn't be used to cram tons more trains through Castlefield. However, splitting up current services may not be the silver bullet it is said to be. Firstly, capacity is limited for terminating services at Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria. If you split the Liverpool Crewe service, you need to have one train terminate at Victoria, then another terminate at Piccadilly, that's extra space both those stations lack. Then, for all those passengers making the full trip, or changing onto a Piccadilly specific service (say Hope Valley, Sheffield, Buxton, Crewe, etc), they'll have to spend an extra 20-30 mins (& 2 quid) on Metrolink to complete their journey. Now some of the issues come down to TPE trains stopping thrice in Manchester due to Ordsall Chord. Really, Castlefield capacity should have been expanded before this was built, but we're here now and it's not going away. Spending the cash on Castlefield will be worth it, just to make good use of our existing infrastructure.

There is a trend of trains becoming longer, but then you hit the limits of the amount of people that can be crammed on the platforms at Piccadilly/Oxford Rd. Since the trains at Piccadilly/Oxford Road dump and reload a good 50-60% of their passengers at both stations, the physical space for passengers is reaching its limit. Things like accessibility are taking a hit, I've seen wheelchair users get stuck on trains, lifts are far too busy for those with heavy luggage & limited mobility. Trains can't even be scheduled to Platform 1 at Oxford Road due to the lack of a lift.

I'd argue, with 50,000 people a day passing through Piccadilly and far more on services through Castlefield, the fact Oxford Road has the most delays/cancellations in the entire country mostly due to the fabric of the station itself and passenger numbers that (if not this year), are likely to grow again in the future, it would be a very sensible spend. Plus, Greater Manchester itself continues to grow. It seems ridiculous that an area now quite overshadowed by skyscrapers and cranes, the rail corridor serving it is so outdated and under-invested in.
 

Senex

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I agree that the extra capacity shouldn't be used just to stuff more traffic in. But I think there's more to it than just the capacity case. The through platforms at London Road / Piccadilly were for most of their existence used by purely local traffic, and when the station was rebuilt under the EML scheme the new island was intended to serve only the electric locals. Since then the usage of the station has changed dramatically, and that island platform (albeit extended — somewhat awkwardly) now serves long-distance inter-city traffic — for which it was never designed and is totally unsuited. As the principal rail gateway to one of the half-dozen or so principal British cities it is a total disgrace in almost every respect. Two island platforms of full-train length, of a decent width and with proper major-station ancillary services not only on but also either above or below them are really the only way of making Piccadilly suitable for the purposes for which it is now used, quite apart from making it work operationally, not least by allowing a proper stop-time for the sort of trains used for long-distance services. What we've got is a classic British example of deciding on the new service-patterns without thinking about providing the proper infrastructure to handle them. It's the reverse of what happens in a number of other countries, where you decide on the service-patterns you want, assess what infrastruture is necessary to run those services reliably, build the infrastructure, and then introduce the services.
 

brad465

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What happened to the previous petition?
I think it ran out of time, but even if it hadn't every election sees the website suspended while Parliament is dissolved and a new committee is setup; all petitions from the previous Parliament disappear and new ones have to be made.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's probably too technical to get widespread. People want the service fixed, but don't understand why it's broken.

It's probably in a similar vein to the fact that a petition saying "Remove London Northwestern's franchise" will get lots of signatures, but "force London Northwestern to insert 20 minutes' layover at New St in the Liverpool services[1]" won't. Yet it's the latter that will go a long way to fixing things.

[1] which is what the May plan is.
 

Jozhua

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It's probably too technical to get widespread. People want the service fixed, but don't understand why it's broken.

It's probably in a similar vein to the fact that a petition saying "Remove London Northwestern's franchise" will get lots of signatures, but "force London Northwestern to insert 20 minutes' layover at New St in the Liverpool services[1]" won't. Yet it's the latter that will go a long way to fixing things.

[1] which is what the May plan is.

Unfortunately you're probably right, that's why hopefully if I can get the message out of the importance of this and why it needs to be built, I may have a chance of reaching the 10,000 threshold.

Doesn't hurt to try I guess...
 

Greybeard33

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A couple of extra platforms at Piccadilly will certainly improve things a bit (assuming we don't then try to squeeze more services through it), but there'd still be all of the flat junctions at each end (e.g. a Cleethorpes service trying to get onto the Airport branch whilst a service from Liverpool/Blackpool/Southport tries to get over to the Stockport lines)
I think you are exaggerating the junction conflicts south of Piccadilly. There are three sets of crossovers between the Slows and Fasts, at Slade Lane, Ardwick and the station throat, which gives some flexibility.

Before May 2018 there were 10tph from the Airport, of which 5tph went through the Castlefield corridor and 5tph into the Piccadilly main shed. Adding to the conflicts were 2tph from Stockport to the corridor, plus 1tph from Guide Bridge to the corridor.

Now we have only 9tph from the Airport, of which 8tph go straight through to the corridor and only 1tph into the main shed. There are 3tph from Stockport to the corridor. So fewer junction conflicts south of Piccadilly, but much worse congestion than before May 2018.

Clearly it is the additional 3tph through Piccadilly P13/14 that are the main cause of the increased congestion, and so P15/16 would be the most effective infrastructure intervention.
 

Jozhua

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I think you are exaggerating the junction conflicts south of Piccadilly. There are three sets of crossovers between the Slows and Fasts, at Slade Lane, Ardwick and the station throat, which gives some flexibility.

Before May 2018 there were 10tph from the Airport, of which 5tph went through the Castlefield corridor and 5tph into the Piccadilly main shed. Adding to the conflicts were 2tph from Stockport to the corridor, plus 1tph from Guide Bridge to the corridor.

Now we have only 9tph from the Airport, of which 8tph go straight through to the corridor and only 1tph into the main shed. There are 3tph from Stockport to the corridor. So fewer junction conflicts south of Piccadilly, but much worse congestion than before May 2018.

Clearly it is the additional 3tph through Piccadilly P13/14 that are the main cause of the increased congestion, and so P15/16 would be the most effective infrastructure intervention.

Yeah, plus when you think about the fact the trains have to stop for 5 minutes plus at the platforms, instead of a junction which a train may only occupy for 30-60 seconds, they quite understandably become an obvious source of congestion.
 

railfan100

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Clearly it is the additional 3tph through Piccadilly P13/14 that are the main cause of the increased congestion, and so P15/16 would be the most effective infrastructure intervention.

Much bigger longer term issues at play here, if the new platforms are added in less than a decade new bottlenecks will be the latest 'craze' for petitions etc e.g. the flat junctions, amazing that in the early 90's this problem never existed and then of course over half of a station is closed e.g. Victoria and then this becomes a burning issue. Quite amazing that so many people cannot see the root cause....
 
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