wls1
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How did you get these figures? Are they now issued per TOC?
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New passenger numbers and Crowding figures published
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GTR's figures were recently released in an FOI - the percentages on the spreadsheets have been calculated the same way the DfT's figures are calculated, but the raw data is there to calculate the "proper" figures.How did you get these figures? Are they now issued per TOC?
evergreenadam
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In the case of London Overground, the DfT data only includes train services operating into the London termini, so Euston and Liverpool Street. The orbital services do not pass through the Central London cordon at which point passengers are counted.Exactly.
How can Elizabeth and the Overground not even have one train in the top ten when they regularly leave people behind at multiple stations and drivers physically struggle to close the doors yet a train in Wales is.
As others have stated the location of the Central London count cordon has not changed, despite the changing commuting and development patterns within London and the introduction of new rail services. It is particularly outdated on the east side of London where the growth of employment in Docklands and Stratford has pushed the busiest point of most services out to Stratford and West Ham.
Amazing how a 12 car 700 can shift c.1500 passengers when full.
neaer 2000. I have routinely counted over 100 people standing in one coach of a 12 car 700. (obviously counting in more than one coach is tricky).
evergreenadam
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GTR’s figures include counts for services arriving and departing Brighton, Cambridge, Peterborough and the West London Line.GTR's figures were recently released in an FOI - the percentages on the spreadsheets have been calculated the same way the DfT's figures are calculated, but the raw data is there to calculate the "proper" figures.
- lots of standing into Cambridge in the morning peak from King’s Lynn, despite the upgrade to 8 coach trains. This will only get worse with Cambridge South opening and population growth.
- lots of standing on the West London Line GTR services during the peaks, 5 coach trains are clearly inadequate for an hourly service. Will be interesting to see how the London Overground peak shuttles between Clapham Junction and Shepherds Bush introduced in May 2026 will impact this, but standing previously extended further north and south than the Overground shuttles operate.
- lots of standing into Brighton from the West Coastway, 3 coach trains are clearly inadequate and even 4 coach trains struggle. Reinstating the Hove to Brighton shuttle would help.
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Doesn't surprise me to see the Sutton Loop Thameslink services on there. I get on at West Sutton and it's normally pretty packed by the time we reach Central London, whichever way round the horn (via Wimbledon or Mitcham) I go.GTR's busiest services (autumn 2025) - capacity refers to the maximum capacity (seating and standing) for all services, which is why the Thameslink services listed on the DfT's publication do not feature on this list:
Company Dep. Origin Destination Arr. Coaches Seats (std) Standing Capacity Busiest Point Busiest Time Avg. Load Load Factor (%) SN 07:45 Epsom London Bridge 08:28 London Bridge 08:28 SN 16:52 Watford Junction East Croydon 18:01 Imperial Wharf 17:29 SN 08:10 East Croydon Watford Junction 09:21 Imperial Wharf 08:43 SN 07:10 East Croydon Watford Junction 08:20 Clapham Junction 07:34 TL 07:46 Sutton (Surrey) via Hackbridge St Albans City 09:07 Elephant & Castle 08:19 SN 17:52 Watford Junction East Croydon 19:01 Imperial Wharf 18:29 TL 07:49 Sutton (Surrey) via Wimbledon St Albans City 09:22 Elephant & Castle 08:34 SN 07:43 Beckenham Junction London Bridge 08:21 London Bridge 08:21 SN 06:10 Littlehampton London Victoria 07:59 Clapham Junction 07:52 SN 07:15 Epsom London Bridge 07:58 London Bridge 07:58 SN 06:52 Watford Junction East Croydon 08:03 Kensington (Olympia) 07:21 SN 08:15 Epsom London Bridge 09:01 London Bridge 09:01 TL 17:07 St Albans City Sutton (Surrey) via Wimbledon 18:44 Elephant & Castle 17:55 SN 17:10 East Croydon Watford Junction 18:21 Kensington (Olympia) 17:51 SN 07:55 Caterham/Tattenham Corner London Bridge 08:43 East Croydon 08:26 SN 15:52 Watford Junction East Croydon 17:01 Imperial Wharf 16:29 SN 07:39 Watford Junction East Croydon 09:01 Shepherd's Bush 08:06 SN 06:36 East Grinstead London Victoria 07:32 Clapham Junction 07:25 SN 07:25 Caterham/Tattenham Corner London Bridge 08:12 East Croydon 07:57 TL 08:16 Sutton (Surrey) via Hackbridge St Albans City 09:37 Elephant & Castle 08:49 GN 07:57 Hertford North Moorgate 08:50 Finsbury Park 08:35 SN 06:52 Watford Junction East Croydon 08:03 Kensington (Olympia) 07:21 TL 08:02 Orpington Luton 09:50 Elephant & Castle 08:44 SN 07:51 East Croydon London Bridge 08:36 London Bridge 08:36 SN 06:40 Littlehampton London Victoria 08:29 Clapham Junction 08:22 TL 16:18 Bedford Brighton 18:45 London Bridge 17:35 TL 07:10 Haywards Heath via Redhill Bedford 09:36 London Bridge 08:20 SN 07:28 London Bridge London Victoria 08:24 Clapham Junction 08:16 SN 19:11 London Victoria Dorking 20:07 Clapham Junction 19:18 SN 08:03 Norwood Junction London Bridge 08:31 London Bridge 08:31 SN 17:16 London Victoria Littlehampton 19:07 Clapham Junction 17:23 TL 07:32 Orpington Luton 09:20 Elephant & Castle 08:14 SN 17:42 London Bridge Caterham/Tattenham Corner 18:24 London Bridge 17:42 TL 07:24 Horsham Peterborough 10:07 London Bridge 08:30 SN 06:19 Hastings London Victoria 08:36 Clapham Junction 08:28 SN 07:32 Littlehampton Brighton 08:21 Brighton 08:21 SN 07:38 Epsom Downs London Victoria 08:40 Clapham Junction 08:32 GN 06:56 Cambridge London Kings Cross 08:22 Finsbury Park 08:14 SN 07:58 London Bridge London Victoria 08:54 Clapham Junction 08:46 TL 07:00 Rainham (Kent) West Hampstead Thameslink 08:51 London Bridge 08:27 SN 07:52 West Croydon London Victoria 08:33 Clapham Junction 08:25 GN 08:01 Gordon Hill Moorgate 08:38 Finsbury Park 08:23 GN 07:58 Stevenage Moorgate 09:04 Finsbury Park 08:49 TL 07:22 Sevenoaks Welwyn Garden City 09:15 Elephant & Castle 08:24 TL 07:19 Sutton (Surrey) via Wimbledon St Albans City 08:51 Elephant & Castle 08:04 TL 07:26 Brighton Bedford 09:44 London Bridge 08:35 SN 17:55 London Bridge Epsom 18:40 London Bridge 17:55 SN 07:14 Dorking London Victoria 08:17 Clapham Junction 08:07 GN 07:26 Stevenage Moorgate 08:32 Finsbury Park 08:15 TL 08:19 Sutton (Surrey) via Wimbledon St Albans City 09:52 Elephant & Castle 09:04
Sometimes though I get a Southern service from Cheam (ex Epsom) and that can already be standing room only in the mornings.
I really would like to see an improvement in frequencies on both routes...
Standing room only is to be expected. The number of seats fitted in a 20 metre length on commuter trains has reduced from 100 (eg VEPs) to 80 (eg 319s) to 60 (eg 700s). It becomes an issue when passengers can't board, but expecting to stand is designed into the system. In broad terms, on a 700 twice as many standing passengers as seated passengers is possible.
Adrian1980uk
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This is always underrated the number of passengers the railways shift in one service, in any London terminal each train is bringing in about 800 passengers on average (I would guess including InterCity services being the average down compared to commuter) during morning peak, imagine trying to move that many on any other form of transport!neaer 2000. I have routinely counted over 100 people standing in one coach of a 12 car 700. (obviously counting in more than one coach is tricky).
Many people forget that in times of disruption!
Agreed. I think the 'official' crush loaded capacity of a 12-car is 1,754 but I've been on 700s where I estimate more than 2,000 have been on board. The best example I can think of was a few years ago when, due to a strike the previosu day, the first train from Stevenage was at something like 08:00. A 12-car rolled in that was already completely wedged, I managed to squeeze on at the very back and to say it was cozy was a understatement. After the next strike boarding controls were put in place at the ticket barriers.neaer 2000. I have routinely counted over 100 people standing in one coach of a 12 car 700. (obviously counting in more than one coach is tricky).
Standing room only by Cheam though means we're at the verge of leaving people behind by the time we hit West Croydon, let alone further in though. Plus the seating layout on the Electrostars means boarding/alighting can take a long time if there's lots of standing passengers which then affects dwell times too.Standing room only is to be expected. The number of seats fitted in a 20 metre length on commuter trains has reduced from 100 (eg VEPs) to 80 (eg 319s) to 60 (eg 700s). It becomes an issue when passengers can't board, but expecting to stand is designed into the system. In broad terms, on a 700 twice as many standing passengers as seated passengers is possible.
Thameslink isn't quite as bad though, as has been pointed out the 700s can just hoover up passengers so in normal service the Sutton Loop trains seem to cope. But if there is any delays or cancellations however, it can get pretty uncomfortable on board.
Doesn't your 9T13 example show that by inserting a stop that no one can physically board suggest that there are some trains are busier that should be looked at first before 9T81 (not saying that 9T81 shouldn't be looked at BTW) and inserting a stop to an given train hasn't actually made the crowding disappear just removed it from the statistics instead?
Oh about 200 people board 9T13 at West Hampstead, because anout a similar number alight.
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Not really my point, more that this train doesn't make the overcrowding stats because it has station calls less than 20 mins apart even though people might well stand for more than 20 minutes as they were standing from the call before West Hampstead.Oh about 200 people board 9T13 at West Hampstead, because anout a similar number alight.
Sorry I might be missing something obvious here, but why would that not count towards the overcrowding stats?Not really my point, more that this train doesn't make the overcrowding stats because it has station calls less than 20 mins apart even though people might well stand for more than 20 minutes as they were standing from the call before West Hampstead.
Surel the overcrowding stat is about standing for a while rather than between two very close stations, some of which not giving every potential standee a chance to find a seat. West Hampstead is almost too near for that.Sorry I might be missing something obvious here, but why would that not count towards the overcrowding stats?
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As I understand the methodology it counts from the penultimate station and the Final station where the gap is more than 20 minutes. However 9T13 doesn't have a gap of 20 minutes between the penultimate station and the Final Station so isn't considered overcrowded. 9T13 has people standing from the 3rd Station, still standing at West Hampstead and then into St Pancras as I understand it, the time between the 3rd Station and St Pancras being over 20 minutes but does meet the conditions for the overcrowding statistics.Sorry I might be missing something obvious here, but why would that not count towards the overcrowding stats?