New Oxford station design concepts

[mr_jrt]

I'm a little confused as to what the problem is exactly anyway. Doesn't Oxford do just fine with two platforms ? Also you are not going o get much more capacity while didcot-banbury is two tracks right?

As I read it, the problem is the long stops and the conflicts from terminating services. Putting in platform loops helps with this dramatically.

Personally, given the scale of the rebuild and the likelihood this will be it for another 80-odd years I'd prefer 6 through platforms, and maybe another north-facing terminal one (or two) to ensure that the Chiltern services could be segregated through Oxford all the way to Cowley, if possible. There's plenty of room if you accept that you don't need the through roads once you have platform loops.

 

[jimm]

The arches remind me of the listed Manchester Oxford Road station. Quite fitting really.
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The YHA are whining about "not being consulted" now:-

http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/14...y_they_still_have_not_found_alternative_site/

In a rare moment, of unity, I'm with big Jimm on this one. It was an outrageous thing for Railtrack to sell this plot and it should be swept away as quickly as possible.

If the YHA have the freehold, they'll get fair value for it and be able to find another site if they look hard enough.

Though the article does tend to suggest that the YHA is indeed being consulted -

A YHA spokesman told the Oxford Mail yesterday: “We are in discussions with Network Rail and Oxford City Council about maintaining a youth hostel in Oxford, and this remains our priority....

“We are joining them for a meeting on March 17 where, we understand, we’ll be presented with the plans for the first time. As yet, no formal compulsory purchase has started, so it remains difficult for YHA to plan ahead.”

So hard to see why they have got the hump if they are having a meeting in a fortnight's time. I should think there is every chance they will be offered a site at the bottom end of Becket Street/Osney Lane as part of the wider redevelopment of the Oxpens area.
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I'm a little confused as to what the problem is exactly anyway. Doesn't Oxford do just fine with two platforms ? Also you are not going o get much more capacity while didcot-banbury is two tracks right?

No Oxford does not do just fine with two (through) platforms. It's a nightmare with the number of trains calling there now and things like the need to make sure terminating semi-fast trains from London are empty before moving off to the sidings while fast trains carrying on to the Cotswold Line are hard on their heels and all too often stuck within sight of the station waiting for the empty stock to move, so don't arrive in the station until the time they should be leaving. Then add late-running XC services from either direction to the mix, and it is a recipe for problems locally and much further afield.

The need to provide extra capacity is precisely why the station needs a rebuild, given the growth in demand generally, from passengers and for yet more container trains to and from Southampton, never mind the need to accommodate East West services in the next few years.
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As I read it, the problem is the long stops and the conflicts from terminating services. Putting in platform loops helps with this dramatically.

Personally, given the scale of the rebuild and the likelihood this will be it for another 80-odd years I'd prefer 6 through platforms, and maybe another north-facing terminal one (or two) to ensure that the Chiltern services could be segregated through Oxford all the way to Cowley, if possible. There's plenty of room if you accept that you don't need the through roads once you have platform loops.

To put in six through platforms would need a very wide Botley Road bridge, but you can't just keep building out to the east as you have to allow room for traffic to get from under the Botley Road bridge up to the level of Becket Street/Frideswide Square. The footprint these designs are based on allows for five through platforms plus the through roads, which seems eminently sensible to me - container trains hammering through at 75mph right next to busy platforms isn't a great idea to my mind.

 

[mr_jrt]

To put in six through platforms would need a very wide Botley Road bridge, but you can't just keep building out to the east as you have to allow room for traffic to get from under the Botley Road bridge up to the level of Becket Street/Frideswide Square. The footprint these designs are based on allows for five through platforms plus the through roads, which seems eminently sensible to me - container trains hammering through at 75mph right next to busy platforms isn't a great idea to my mind.

Oh, absolutely. What I envisioned requires no more space at rail level to the east than the planned works, and the extra width used for the walkway could just easily be raised higher to account for the road slope. I stuck it in a pdf so it's easy to page flip between them: http://random.jamie-thompson.co.uk/Oxford 2.pdf

(potential terminal platforms on the east side not shown)

Agreed it's not ideal to have freight hammering past platforms at speed, but my understanding is that the loops are used quite a lot to recess freight, and those loops do not need to be in the platform area (rough concept):

 

[MarkyT]

Oh, absolutely. What I envisioned requires no more space at rail level to the east than the planned works, and the extra width used for the walkway could just easily be raised higher to account for the road slope. I stuck it in a pdf so it's easy to page flip between them: http://random.jamie-thompson.co.uk/Oxford 2.pdf

(potential terminal platforms on the east side not shown)

Agreed it's not ideal to have freight hammering past platforms at speed, but my understanding is that they loops are used quite a lot to recess freight, and those loops do not need to be in the platform area (rough concept):

Here's my Oxford ideas first posted a while ago, keeping the through roads and providing 5 through platforms at the station in total, the easternmost one functioning primarily as a contraflow for the extended Chiltern service from Cowley towards Bicester (with the opposing direction mixing in with the GW and XC Up traffic). I believe the idea in retaining the centre through roads is to allow passenger trains to call at the down platform then continue further on outer loop line whilst freights sidle up and accelerate slowly beside them on the through roads slipping out behind them ASAP as they accelerate away into the distance without the freights actually having to stop at all. This is a further development on what is being planned and implemented today under resignalling, and also led (in my wild imaginings!) to the idea for the down bypass line around the west side of Hinksey yard.
http://www.townend.me/files/oxford.pdf

 

[D1009]

container trains hammering through at 75mph right next to busy platforms isn't a great idea to my mind.

Though apparently it'll be OK to have IEPs hammering through the platforms at Reading at 95 mph every half hour in both directions.

 

[infobleep]

Though the article does tend to suggest that the YHA is indeed being consulted -



So hard to see why they have got the hump if they are having a meeting in a fortnight's time. I should think there is every chance they will be offered a site at the bottom end of Becket Street/Osney Lane as part of the wider redevelopment of the Oxpens area.
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No Oxford does not do just fine with two (through) platforms. It's a nightmare with the number of trains calling there now and things like the need to make sure terminating semi-fast trains from London are empty before moving off to the sidings while fast trains carrying on to the Cotswold Line are hard on their heels and all too often stuck within sight of the station waiting for the empty stock to move, so don't arrive in the station until the time they should be leaving. Then add late-running XC services from either direction to the mix, and it is a recipe for problems locally and much further afield.

The need to provide extra capacity is precisely why the station needs a rebuild, given the growth in demand generally, from passengers and for yet more container trains to and from Southampton, never mind the need to accommodate East West services in the next few years.
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To put in six through platforms would need a very wide Botley Road bridge, but you can't just keep building out to the east as you have to allow room for traffic to get from under the Botley Road bridge up to the level of Becket Street/Frideswide Square. The footprint these designs are based on allows for five through platforms plus the through roads, which seems eminently sensible to me - container trains hammering through at 75mph right next to busy platforms isn't a great idea to my mind.

Similar problems can occur at Woking at times with terminating trains being late into through platforms and delaying other trains land that's got four through platforms and two terminating ones. So I can quite easily see why Oxford could do with more platforms.

 

[swt_passenger]

Though apparently it'll be OK to have IEPs hammering through the platforms at Reading at 95 mph every half hour in both directions.

It ought to be OK, 125 mph passenger services through platforms is perfectly within the rules and happens already.

 

[MarkyT]

It ought to be OK, 125 mph passenger services through platforms is perfectly within the rules and happens already.

And the new Reading platforms are a bit wider than some traditional places like Stevenage and Didcot Parkway for instance (although could be more crowded at certain times).

 

[The Planner]

Though apparently it'll be OK to have IEPs hammering through the platforms at Reading at 95 mph every half hour in both directions.

Depends how you look at it though, a 250m train at 95mph or a 600m freight at 75mph.

 

[jopsuk]

It ought to be OK, 125 mph passenger services through platforms is perfectly within the rules and happens already.

Indeed, Peterborough recently gained a platform on a track with a limit of ( I think) 110mph.

 

[jimm]

Oh, absolutely. What I envisioned requires no more space at rail level to the east than the planned works, and the extra width used for the walkway could just easily be raised higher to account for the road slope. I stuck it in a pdf so it's easy to page flip between them: http://random.jamie-thompson.co.uk/Oxford 2.pdf

(potential terminal platforms on the east side not shown)

Agreed it's not ideal to have freight hammering past platforms at speed, but my understanding is that the loops are used quite a lot to recess freight, and those loops do not need to be in the platform area (rough concept):

You can draw all the diagrams you like, but the basic consensus of the parties involved in the station project is clearly to keep the job as simple and straightforward as possible.

That means leaving the through roads where they are and keeping the freights away from platforms, and leaving the lines of platforms 1 and 2 where they are and building around those parameters - rather than adding to the disruption by shuffling platform 1 across and rebuilding two platforms that are about to be created at the north end at not inconsiderable expense for Chiltern's services, which will set the position of the future fourth through platform and the bay which can be turned into a fifth through platform.

So on that basis that the pre-determined masterplan footprint - in this presentation pdf (NB big file, slow to load) http://www.oxfordwestend.co.uk/Direct/Loresexhibitiongraphics.pdf is the one to work from, I stand by my contention that adding a sixth through platform would mean pushing out further to the east, bringing assorted issues with it.

Taking into account the number of container trains likely to be passing through Oxford in future, one or two of your six platforms would be out of bounds to passenger trains for chunks of each hour anyway, whereas five through platforms and two through roads to keep freight away from the platforms all the time is likely to offer the best of both worlds - which may just be why the masterplan was drawn up the way it was...

My understanding is that GWR are pressing for five through platforms from day one and I assume Chiltern are of the same mind, as it would be needed to make the Cowley concept work properly.

And yes, I know trains go past platforms at 125mph but when at Oxford I am quite glad there is a nice bit of track between me and a passing Freightliner. If you step out on to a platform at Banbury just as one is going through there it can be downright alarming.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Two platforms per direction plus a fifth for the Chiltern/EWR services should be more than enough. If Old Oak Common will cope with two platform faces per direction per GWML line there's no reason why Oxford couldn't do the same, as even in the wildest growth predictions there's not going to be almost 20tph through the station. There appears to be plenty of space to resolve junction conflicts to the north and south of the station, leaving the platforms solely responsible for getting passengers on and off (as in, no need to wait at a red signal for a junction just off the end of the platform, thereby blocking it for other services).

As jimm says, there wouldn't be a vast amount of benefit to that extra platform face if now it would still be blocked by freight services quite a bit of the time. If the extra benefit of that extra platform is so limited, then why would you bother going to the effort of completely rebuilding the site on the live railway? It would cost far more, and that money could be better spent on a lot of other things that would do more for the network. I'm sure everyone would agree that they would rather have 5 platforms at Oxford and 1 platform at Cowley rather than 6 platforms at Oxford and 0 at Cowley.

 

[mr_jrt]

...that freight doesn't magically spring into existence a mile south of the station and vanish again a mile or so north of it. The services have to share a two-track railway either side, which means they are already fitting around the passenger services. The only time we have a problem is when two passenger services are already at Oxford, whereby the freight can wait in a recess. Somehow this is sufficient for the rest of the rail network. If you really think a two-track railway needs 3 lines in each direction be my guest, but to me it seems wasteful not to use the space for platforms to segregate the line from Bicester without creating a single track bottleneck.

In the long term Oxford might well even need to expand - 4 tracks to Didcot? Massively expanded line to Cowley? Who knows. Building the station with as many platforms as you can now just seems more sensible given the money being spent rather than just building what it needed yesterday. Hell, the GWR wanted to rebuild Oxford in the first few decades of the last century as a 8-platform monster had the war not intervened. We shall see what the future holds.

 

[swt_passenger]

Why would special precautions have to be taken at Oxford, such as clearing platforms while container trains pass through? The same trains pass through the simple two platform station at Winchester at full speed with just the usual warning announcements and displays.

 

[Andyjs247]

Why would special precautions have to be taken at Oxford, such as clearing platforms while container trains pass through? The same trains pass through the simple two platform station at Winchester at full speed with just the usual warning announcements and displays.

In principle I don't see any reason why through non-platform lines need to exist in the redeveloped station. Indeed maximising platform space by not having through lines would surely be the way to go, given the constraints on the site. Plenty of examples exist where trains pass through platform lines at speed e.g. Didcot Parkway, Watford Junction. Thinking about it MKC is probably one of the more recent equivalent examples but again no through non-platform lines - although they could have put them in at the time if it was felt necessary.

Edit: I imagine having those 2 through lines will make the construction job easier; but whether they remain in the final layout remains to be seen. A compromise would be to keep 1 reversible through line as has been done at Princes Risborough.

At the risk of drifting off-topic I see from Realtimetrains from 15 May that platforms at Oxford seem to be renumbered from the new timetable. No doubt it's a mistake but on that date it appears that there are some services (e.g. 1W03 1352 departure to Hereford) stopping at platform TL - through line rather than platform 4!

Otherwise it seems that the ex-parcels platform will be coming in to use sooner than I expected making 4 platform faces available.

 

[jimm]

Why would special precautions have to be taken at Oxford, such as clearing platforms while container trains pass through? The same trains pass through the simple two platform station at Winchester at full speed with just the usual warning announcements and displays.

I'm not calling for special precautions.

The fundamental point I'm trying to get across here is that the through roads are already there and provide the means to keep freights out of the way of passenger trains, whether there are four or five through platforms in a future Oxford station, so where on earth is the benefit in one extra platform if every single freight movement through the station then has to pass along a platform line, thus reducing their ability to, er, handle passenger trains?

And the ability to use the through roads and their continuation northward to Oxford North and Wolvercot to hold freights and allow passenger trains to overtake is a pretty fundamental part of the future operating plan for the Oxford area. Should future plans for more quadruple track running south from Oxford - whether to Radley or all the way to Didcot - emerge, then you can extend that same four track core well beyond Oxford, with the lines divided by purpose all the way, as well.

In addition, however much some people on here appear to wish it were not the case - and hang the expense and huge amount of extra disruption their ideas would involve - the footprint for the rebuild is in place, with the through roads staying right where they are and the shortly to be built north bays forming the north ends of future platform alignments at the east side of the station. It would hardly do much for Network Rail's efforts to show how responsible and cost-effective it is now going to be if it starts smashing up platforms and canopies built just a few years earlier.

Hell, the GWR wanted to rebuild Oxford in the first few decades of the last century as a 8-platform monster had the war not intervened. We shall see what the future holds.

I'm afraid you've got your history wrong. The proposal for a new station - plus adjacent bus station - was post-Second World War and was a joint GWR-LMS plan and relied on having lots of land to play with that is no longer available, thanks to good old Railtrack selling the Rewley Road station site so the university could build the Said Business School.

 

[mr_jrt]

I'm afraid you've got your history wrong. The proposal for a new station - plus adjacent bus station - was post-Second World War and was a joint GWR-LMS plan and relied on having lots of land to play with that is no longer available, thanks to good old Railtrack selling the Rewley Road station site so the university could build the Said Business School.

Happy to stand corrected.

I'm not sure it would have depended too much on the Rewley Road site much though...unless they planned on demolishing the entire block between Becket Street and Hollybush row. The land south of Botley road is just the car park and north of it is just the station and bus station...that said, some of the modern buildings on Rewley road on the Rewley Road station throat would cause a few issues, and you'd still have the issue of the Botley Road gradient to worry about, so unless they planned raising the rail level by a few metres I'm not sure what they had planned. Would certainly be interesting if there were any plans out there.

 

[HowardGWR]

Interesting discussion. I think both of you would agree that this is the time for future proofing. If there is to be this upheaval (and there is) then one might as well get it ready for four tracking levels of capacity between Didcot and Oxford from the start.

 

[JamesT]

How does the new station plans tie in with the GW Electrification?
Will they put up wires with the current layout and rip them down when they redo the station? Or wait for the new station to electrify?

 

[jimm]

Deleted, replaced with revised post below after finding some images showing the 1948 ideas

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm not calling for special precautions.

The fundamental point I'm trying to get across here is that the through roads are already there and provide the means to keep freights out of the way of passenger trains, whether there are four or five through platforms in a future Oxford station, so where on earth is the benefit in one extra platform if every single freight movement through the station then has to pass along a platform line, thus reducing their ability to, er, handle passenger trains?

I read it wrong then, as 'out of bounds to passengers while a freight passes', so apologies. The issues become more comparable with Southampton Central, which has a similar need to keep passing freights through while some platforms are blocked with terminating trains, and others with calling trains.

I agree that removing the existing through lines is unnecessary, as the various snippets of NR's layout proposals show, and as you are already aware.

 

[jimm]

Happy to stand corrected.

I'm not sure it would have depended too much on the Rewley Road site much though...unless they planned on demolishing the entire block between Becket Street and Hollybush row. The land south of Botley road is just the car park and north of it is just the station and bus station...that said, some of the modern buildings on Rewley road on the Rewley Road station throat would cause a few issues, and you'd still have the issue of the Botley Road gradient to worry about, so unless they planned raising the rail level by a few metres I'm not sure what they had planned. Would certainly be interesting if there were any plans out there.

The GWR-LMS plan fed into a concept drawn up by a town planner called Dr Thomas Sharp, published in 1948 as Oxford Replanned, which also included things like a ring road and the St Ebbe's redevelopment. The best images I can come up with from it are these pictures which show the station in the top left corner and left-hand edge. The Oxford Mail or Oxford Times did print a detail of the station some years back but it's not online.

https://www.fulltable.com/vts/m/map/oxford/SH946.jpg

https://www.fulltable.com/vts/m/map/oxford/SH947.jpg

Interesting discussion. I think both of you would agree that this is the time for future proofing. If there is to be this upheaval (and there is) then one might as well get it ready for four tracking levels of capacity between Didcot and Oxford from the start.

Yes, and grade separation at Didcot/Moreton, Kennington and Oxford North junctions too, which would probably all be of more value overall in keeping things moving than a sixth through platform at Oxford station.

How does the new station plans tie in with the GW Electrification?
Will they put up wires with the current layout and rip them down when they redo the station? Or wait for the new station to electrify?

The issue of trying to marry up all the things that need to happen at Oxford is a key factor in why wiring Didcot-Oxford is now near the back of the queue in the various phases of the GW electrification project. Hopefully they can now pin down exactly what they want in terms of a future track layout through the Oxford area and then proceed with track alterations and wiring in tandem on that basis.

 

[jimm]

Not strictly to do with the station redevelopment, but paving the way for it, so this is as good a place as any to post this.

Phase 0 of Oxford area alterations is on track for completion later this year, allowing Chiltern services to reach the station and use of the reinstated down loop line to Wolvercote.

Phase 1 will be carried out over the next two years, with couple of blockades. The first, in July next year, will be for nine days for tracks slews and other work on the track layout to pave the way for resignalling and electrification, plus a future rebuild of the station.
The second blockade, pencilled in for Easter 2018 - though the February half-term remains an option - will see Siemens resignalling the Oxford area. This will then be followed later in the year by the installation of 25kv overhead, with the wires going live at some point in 2019.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Not strictly to do with the station redevelopment, but paving the way for it, so this is as good a place as any to post this.

Phase 0 of Oxford area alterations is on track for completion later this year, allowing Chiltern services to reach the station and use of the reinstated down loop line to Wolvercote.

Phase 1 will be carried out over the next two years, with couple of blockades. The first, in July next year, will be for nine days for tracks slews and other work on the track layout to pave the way for resignalling and electrification, plus a future rebuild of the station.
The second blockade, pencilled in for Easter 2018 - though the February half-term remains an option - will see Siemens resignalling the Oxford area. This will then be followed later in the year by the installation of 25kv overhead, with the wires going live at some point in 2019.

Do we have any idea of the track layout post phase 1? And what further phases are there?

 

[ic250]

You can quite clearly see the proposed dual carriageway road across Christ Church meadow there - thank god that never happened.

 

[jimm]

Do we have any idea of the track layout post phase 1? And what further phases are there?

Phase 1 is basically what is there now, though as I say there will be various slews, plus alterations to the layout of sidings north of the station, in addition to the alterations at the north end and at Oxford North junction being done in phase 0, which in turn provides for further longer platforms at the east side of the station through the site of the existing main station building when the station redevelopment gets under way.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Phase 1 is basically what is there now, though as I say there will be various slews, plus alterations to the layout of sidings north of the station, in addition to the alterations at the north end and at Oxford North junction being done in phase 0, which in turn provides for further longer platforms at the east side of the station through the site of the existing main station building when the station redevelopment gets under way.

So a layout similar to what is there will be electrified? That seems a little short-sighted given the massive rebuild being planned.

 

[The Planner]

Usual caveats apply though don't they, planned does not mean committed or funded.

 

[MarkyT]

The new signalling is necessary for electrification which is fairly imminent now even with the revised programme. There is simply not time to optioneer, develop and agree funding for all the various further enhancements, let alone build them all in time for the scheduled commisioning of the signalling shortly followed by the energisation of the wires. There has to be a baseline on which the proper detailed engineering design can commence. New signalling, once installed, will then make future layout changes possible under a staged programme of enhancements as occurred at Reading.

 

[jimm]

So a layout similar to what is there will be electrified? That seems a little short-sighted given the massive rebuild being planned.

In what way is it short-sighted? The footprint for the new station proposals is based around what is already there/about to be built.

The four tracks through the middle stay where they are, as do the alignments of the current platforms 1, 2 and 3. In the rebuild the alignment of 3 becomes the eastern face of an island platform. At the western side of the station, you add a new track to create another island behind the existing platform 2 - where in the past there used to be another bay platform at the north end.

The track alterations in phases 0 and 1 are all designed to align with these proposals, wth the aim of making further track alterations for the station rebuild phase as straightforward as possible.