New Overground line names progress?

[Wolfie]

Geographical maps would end up needing a lot of space. For someone from outside London - we use the maps to see where we need to change so for us they convey the information perfectly - change here to get here.

Absolutely and that is exactly why the Harry Beck design replaced geographic maps. They were much less usable for their primary purpose.

 

[RGM654]

The most useful map is one for the line you're on, showing all the interchanges with other lines. If there is sufficient space somewhere, a map of the whole system is useful. That's what mostly happens on the Underground. One that covers several lines but not all of them, especially if it excludes the one you're on, seems a bit daft.

 

[Wolfie]

The most useful map is one for the line you're on, showing all the interchanges with other lines. If there is sufficient space somewhere, a map of the whole system is useful. That's what mostly happens on the Underground. One that covers several lines but not all of them, especially if it excludes the one you're on, seems a bit daft.

It's not like they aren't there though - probably directly above your head lol....

I use those trains daily and have no issues.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Didn't the 378s used to have maps for all the routes before the renaming? So has anything really changed here

Nope, they only had 3 lines - the Watford DC and the 2 lines out of Clapham.

 

[Wolfie]

Nope, they only had 3 lines - the Watford DC and the 2 lines out of Clapham.

Yes and no - they had loads of whole Overground maps.... If l was a pedant l'd ask about services from Richmond lol

 

[announcements]

Geographical maps would end up needing a lot of space. For someone from outside London - we use the maps to see where we need to change so for us they convey the information perfectly - change here to get here.

Yes indeed, I guess my point was cramming all the Overground routes onto one map whereby, say, West Hampstead is next to Enfield Town, doesn't really add much value. Nobody on, say, the Mildmay line, necessarily cares any more about the, say, Lioness line than they do, say, the Piccadilly line or DLR.

 

[bicbasher]

Didn't the 378s used to have maps for all the routes before the renaming? So has anything really changed here

They did, but weren't as noticeable before the rebrand of the lines.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Yes indeed, I guess my point was cramming all the Overground routes onto one map whereby, say, West Hampstead is next to Enfield Town, doesn't really add much value. Nobody on, say, the Mildmay line, necessarily cares any more about the, say, Lioness line than they do, say, the Piccadilly line or DLR.

Well you may think that but for us, from out of town, seeing where we need to be and where to change means we care.

 

[Wolfie]

Well you may think that but for us, from out of town, seeing where we need to be and where to change means we care.

.... and that's the point. The maps generally are not for those who use the service regularly.

 

[announcements]

Well you may think that but for us, from out of town, seeing where we need to be and where to change means we care.

Just to be clear, the LO map brings together all routes that just so happen to be operated by LO but have very little in common. If you are visiting from out of town, you should not need to care about the legalities of who operates from a mode perspective, because the Tube, Overground, DLR and Lizzie use a common fare structure. You will need to know the bigger picture i.e. See the "Tube" Map or even London Connections Map in full, but the LO one specifically? - I am not convinced.

 

[I'm here now]

Used the central, northern, baker loo and ‘Liz lines recently, only ‘Liz has it on line carriage diagrams and others are outdated w/o new step free info, etc. (even lack of Bond Street ‘Liz interchange!) - shocking! Station announcements still group overground into one and lack any clarity.
I know it’s a process, yet this one seems very shoddy.
If this is repeating anything, I apologise.

 

[stuu]

It was stated from the beginning that diagrams would only be updated as part of the normal maintenance schedule, to limit the cost

 

[CastlebarKeith]

It was stated from the beginning that diagrams would only be updated as part of the normal maintenance schedule, to limit the cost

It would have limited the cost even more if they hadn't bothered with any names. It's always other people's money to fund these ideas. How many new fare paying bums on seats will this exercise generate?

 

[CapitalStar378]

It would have limited the cost even more if they hadn't bothered with any names. It's always other people's money to fund these ideas. How many new fare paying bums on seats will this exercise generate?

Other people's money funds all public services, it's called tax. The discussion around naming has been done to death.

 

[ijmad]

It would have limited the cost even more if they hadn't bothered with any names. It's always other people's money to fund these ideas. How many new fare paying bums on seats will this exercise generate?

The entire renaming exercise cost less than one day of revenue for London Overground, and that includes replacing some maps and other signage that would be replaced in due course anyway.

Compared with the ROI of reducing passenger confusion, reducing passenger-staff interactions, speeding up journeys, and removing frustrations around working out which of the LO lines has delays or planned works and may require me to replan my journey - for the next hundred years or so - I think it's not a bad deal at all.

To capture the benefits, imagine the laughable exercise of trying to navigate the tube if all the lines were one colour and services were just described by their start/end points, and a broken down train on the Waterloo and City line meant every passenger information board started displaying "severe delays on the London Underground".

 

[announcements]

I still think they ought to have created a 7th line by splitting Enfield Town/Cheshunt from Chingford. These operate as practically two separate lines and therefore would help ease confusion, not least with some stations skipped. And before anyone asks which colours are left... orange! The colour orange never ended up getting used for the other six lines.

 

[Recessio]

I still think they ought to have created a 7th line by splitting Enfield Town/Cheshunt from Chingford. These operate as practically two separate lines and therefore would help ease confusion, not least with some stations skipped. And before anyone asks which colours are left... orange! The colour orange never ended up getting used for the other six lines.

Is the TfL Underground/corporate blue the same blue used for Picadilly line? If so it could therefore be fine to reuse "Overground" Orange for a 7th line.

 

[Blackpool boy]

Just to be clear, the LO map brings together all routes that just so happen to be operated by LO but have very little in common. If you are visiting from out of town, you should not need to care about the legalities of who operates from a mode perspective, because the Tube, Overground, DLR and Lizzie use a common fare structure. You will need to know the bigger picture i.e. See the "Tube" Map or even London Connections Map in full, but the LO one specifically? - I am not convinced.

If i am on an LO train then yes, i do indeed use the maps that are on that train - thats why they are there

 

[announcements]

Is the TfL Underground/corporate blue the same blue used for Picadilly line? If so it could therefore be fine to reuse "Overground" Orange for a 7th line.

The LU modal colour is red, which is used for the Central line (albeit maybe not the exact same shade, but still red)

If i am on an LO train then yes, i do indeed use the maps that are on that train - thats why they are there

Yes you'd use the diagram for that LO route, but wouldn't necessarily need the Overground network map: https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/london-overground-network-map.pdf

 

[ijmad]

I still think they ought to have created a 7th line by splitting Enfield Town/Cheshunt from Chingford. These operate as practically two separate lines and therefore would help ease confusion, not least with some stations skipped. And before anyone asks which colours are left... orange! The colour orange never ended up getting used for the other six lines.

I very much agree, the Enfield/Cheshunt and Chingford services only share two stations, and at the third (Hackney Downs) they both stop but at separate platforms (most of the day anyway). At Liverpool Street you still very much have to look for a 'Weaver Line to <somewhere>' rather than just a 'Weaver Line to Enfield/Cheshunt' (good for the 11 stations in common) or a 'Something Line' that goes to Chingford.

Would be better I think.

 

[MatthewHutton]

It would have limited the cost even more if they hadn't bothered with any names. It's always other people's money to fund these ideas. How many new fare paying bums on seats will this exercise generate?

Almost certainly more than it costs to do.

I am not a massive fan of the names but that said the tube has a lot of royal names and these are at least different.
Plus some clarity about which lines are closed/have delays etc does make the lines more usable for non regular users. This will increase ridership meaningfully.

And to be honest if it raises ridership by even 0.1% or something that will cover the costs of this change. Don’t forget the railway doesn’t have big variable costs, so the more riders the better.

 

[LUYMun]

Recently there's been news on the names of the London Overground lines, as there's been a report by London Centric on Substack on the rejected London Overground names, which said that they were given various documents by Transport for London detailing the candidates, following a Freedom of Information request being rejected. Some of them were rejected because it was decided to celebrate groups rather than individuals, some because they were hard to hear clearly on announcements or could have been mistaken for safety-critical words, and some because there was a risk of the names being abbreviated or used as slurs.

I won't quote the full article, but this is the list of names suggested for the Overground lines: https://www.londoncentric.media/p/the-rejected-london-overground-line

• Sunflower line: “Showcasing the sunflower, which is a symbol used by those with non-visible disabilities, especially autism and other forms of neurodiversity.”
• Willow line: “Recognising the willow trees that run along the banks of the River Lea, representing conservation and the furniture making industry that is prevalent in this area of London.”
• Malins line: “Opened in 1860, Malin’s is recorded as the first fish and chip shop in the UK. As well as the country's national dish, fish and chips encapsulate how migration and trade have shaped our culture, with fried fish being introduced by Sephardic Jewish immigrants and chips being made by potatoes that originally come from the Americas.”
• Fanns line: “The Land of the Fanns is a 50-year ecological project protecting the landscape of the Thames Estuary. The work aims to reunify the landscape, strengthen the attachment and create a sense of enjoyment for local people and visitors.”
• Skylark line: “A well-loved bird, which can be found at the Walthamstow Wetlands. Their habitats are largely concentrated in the suburbs, almost forming a ring around the capital like the London Overground.”
• Derham line: “Cleric and scientist William Derham (1657-1735) was a rector in Upminster from 1689 until 1735. He became chaplain to the Prince of Wales, the future George II, and was also made a canon of Windsor.”
• Huggett line: “Annie Huggett was the longest surviving suffragist, who lived until she was 103. She worked with working-class suffragettes in the East End, running meetings in The Three Lamps, Barking, which was a favoured spot for trade unionists and suffragettes.”
• Winton line: “Nicholas Winton organised the rescue of 669 children, mostly Jewish, from Czechoslovakia on the eve of the Second World War. This operation, later known as the Czech Kindertransport, saw the children arrive into Liverpool Street station.”
• Hops line: "Plantsman William Coys' (1560-1627) work at Stubbers Garden in Upminster was a precursor to the first botanical gardens. He grew the first tomatoes, Jerusalem artichokes and hops in the UK, and studied the art of beer brewing."
• Obaala line: "Named after a Black art gallery in South Tottenham, which was created by the Organisation for Black Art Advancement and Leisure Activities (OBAALA). The organisation aimed to showcase the work of artists who were proud of their African ancestry."
• Cother line: "Honouring Jack Cother, the first Asian professional footballer in the UK who played for Watford FC from 1897. The club's Vicarage Road stadium at the end of the line has a small plaque in his honour. Cother's father was originally from Mumbai, India and this story recognises the important South Asian communities along this line, particularly at Wembley, at a time when racism in football continues to be an important issue."
• Saffron line: "The word Croydon comes from the Anglo-Saxon words for crocus and valley, indicating that it was a centre for the cultivation of saffron, which is a spice, dye and perfume ingredient that originates from the Middle East and South Asia, and is popular in cooking, fashion and fragrances from as far as Spain and India."
• Althea line: "Althea McNish is considered to be the first designer of African-Caribbean descent to achieve international recognition. Her designs depict English flora in vibrant colours. She moved from Trinidad to London when she was 27."
• Jayaben line: "Recognising the work and fighting spirit of Jayaben Desai, who led strikes against working conditions, pay inequality and institutional racism within the Grunwick Plant in Willesden."
• Polari line: "A form of language, Polari originated in the London's fish markets, theatres, fairgrounds and circuses. It was adopted by the gay subculture at a time when being homosexual was illegal, to disguise gay men from hostile outsiders and undercover police officers."
• Galtymore line: "A tribute to an Irish club near Willesden Green, which ran for 56 years. The Galtymore dance hall and community centre opened in 1952 and became famous as an oasis of Irishness in an often hostile city."
• Paralympic line: "In 1948, coinciding with the opening of the Olympic games in London, the first competition for wheelchair athletes took place at Stoke Mandeville with 16 injured service men and women taking part. More than 70 years later, the London 2012 Paralympic Games were held in Stratford."
• Ripple line: "Capturing the line's strong association with water, taking in Hampstead Ponds, Walthamstow Wetlands and Hackney Marshes through to the Thames at Barking and the Ripple Nature Reserve."
• Cable Street line: "Remembering the Battle of Cable Street at Shadwell in 1936, an anti-fascist demonstration by a collective uprising of local trade unionists, communists and British Jews, supported in particular by Irish workers and socialist groups."
• Lovers Rock line: "Celebrating a subgenre of reggae music that emerged in the 1970s. The Eve Studios in Brockley helped establish the sound. Created by London's Caribbean community, it is known for its romantic sound and content, and aimed to show the humanity of Black Britons."
• Keskidee line: "Founded in 1971, the Keskidee Arts Centre was Britain's first arts centre for the Black community. Located near Caledonian Road & Barnsbury station, the project was initiated by Guyanese architect and cultural activist Oscar Abrams to provide cultural activities for the West Indian community."
• Garrud line: "Edith Garrud was the first British female jujitsu teacher and one of the first female martial arts instructors in the western world. She was a supporter of women's suffrage and joined the Women's Freedom League in 1906, where she set up a self-defence club. Garrud trained the Women's Social and Political Union in self-defence techniques to protect its leaders from violence."
• Sisterwrite line: "Opened in 1978, Sisterwrite was Britain's first feminist bookshop. It ran as a collective and safe space for female writers and readers, and was notable for its lesbian literature section, becoming an early hub for London's lesbian community. The Islington-based bookshop, which closed in 1993, is an example of the many small independent businesses that serve as community assets across London."
• Kaushal line: "Born in 1906 in Punjab, Baldev Kaushal trained at the Middlesex Hospital before setting up a medical practice near Cambridge Heath. It was here that he helped victims of the Bethnal Green Tube station disaster of 1943."
• Moonshot line: "The Moonshot was opened in 1981 as the first purpose-built community centre for Black people in the UK. The centre was built on the site of an old mission hall in New Cross Gate, which was burned down in an arson attack by National Front members. The club's founder, Sybil Phoenix became the first Black woman to be awarded an MBE."
• Green carnation line: "Commonly worn by gay men in the Victorian era, green carnations were a covert symbol of their sexuality. It was popularised by Oscar Wilde and has since be readopted by the LGBTQ+ community as a symbol of positivity."
• Rom line: "As well as giving a geographical nod to the town of Romford and the river Rom, the name is also associated with the Rom skatepark. Since opening in 1978, the skatepark has earned Grade-II listed status, the first in Europe to achieve this and only the second in the world."
  
  There’s also an even longer list of potential line names that don’t seem to have progressed to the full scoping-out stage but were considered as part of the process.

 

[Class15]

Ripple Line sounds quite cool, but possibly a bit too similar to a freight yard that the line comes near!

 

[Wolfie]

Recently there's been news on the names of the London Overground lines, as there's been a report by London Centric on Substack on the rejected London Overground names, which said that they were given various documents by Transport for London detailing the candidates, following a Freedom of Information request being rejected. Some of them were rejected because it was decided to celebrate groups rather than individuals, some because they were hard to hear clearly on announcements or could have been mistaken for safety-critical words, and some because there was a risk of the names being abbreviated or used as slurs.

I won't quote the full article, but this is the list of names suggested for the Overground lines: https://www.londoncentric.media/p/the-rejected-london-overground-line

Yuk! Puts those used into perspective. The one l might have liked used, to credit a very moral, heroic and upright individual is the Winton line. TfL don't tend to name lines after individuals, other than monarchs, though.

 

[greatkingrat]

Most people would have probably thought it was named after Dale Winton!

 

[Lewisham2221]

Most people would have probably thought it was named after Dale Winton!

My initial thought was that people would probably end up calling it the Winston line

 

[Wolfie]

Most people would have probably thought it was named after Dale Winton!

Judging by some of the comment made about the names actually chosen you are sadly mostly likely right....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2025 ==

My initial thought was that people would probably end up calling it the Winston line

Hahaha that's one way to get it past the other main party lol....

 

[AM9]

Judging by some of the comment made about the names actually chosen you are sadly mostly likely right....

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Mar 2025 ==


Hahaha that's one way to get it past the other main party lol....

Depends on whether it's Nicholas or Dale.

 

[Tobberz]

Goodness me, those alternative options make me glad they went for the ones they did.

 

[Mr. SW]

These are all buttock-clenchingly awful.
They appear to have been chosen by finding some buzz-words on the internet and presented to and by no-one over the age of thirty with any real idea of what some of these things truly mean.