New Overground line names progress?

[Sad Sprinter]

I've lived in Islington since 1990, use the NLL and ELL every day, and have never heard anyone - even TfL staff - refer to those lines in those terms.

But that doesn't mean those names don't exist and create a more accurate description of the geographic area of the lines served.

For me, my opposition to the names is a bit political. Sadiq Khan's brand of Labourism is the worst kind. No economic vision, just cuddly progressive gesture to distinguish London as a nice place compared to a "bad" place. I.e Middle England. It's the same sort of attitude in the devolved parliaments. No economic vision, just cuddly politics. Andy Burnham, seems like a far more competent Mayor, who seems to have no other ideology than to build up Manchester. Khan's ideology is primarily to make London as "open" as possible which for me, is ultimately an ineffectual use of of governing time for a city as large and intricate as London. The names he has chosen reflect his limp ideological position which is for me, why they're so annoying when the actual route lines, could have simply been used.

 

[Wolfie]

But that doesn't mean those names don't exist and create a more accurate description of the geographic area of the lines served.

For me, my opposition to the names is a bit political. Sadiq Khan's brand of Labourism is the worst kind. No economic vision, just cuddly progressive gesture to distinguish London as a nice place compared to a "bad" place. I.e Middle England. It's the same sort of attitude in the devolved parliaments. No economic vision, just cuddly politics. Andy Burnham, seems like a far more competent Mayor, who seems to have no other ideology than to build up Manchester. Khan's ideology is primarily to make London as "open" as possible which for me, is ultimately an ineffectual use of of governing time for a city as large and intricate as London. The names he has chosen reflect his limp ideological position which is for me, why they're so annoying when the actual route lines, could have simply been used.

TfL were never going to use North London line. Too close to the Northern line. The East London line l agree with you could have been used.

Not about to engage with the politics except to say that l disagree. I made my views clearly previously and was criticised.

 

[kacper]

DLR Trains terminating at Stratford announce interchange to “London Overground North London Line”, that’s the only place i’ve seen it officially referred to as that

 

[Recessio]

But that doesn't mean those names don't exist and create a more accurate description of the geographic area of the lines served.

For me, my opposition to the names is a bit political. Sadiq Khan's brand of Labourism is the worst kind. No economic vision, just cuddly progressive gesture to distinguish London as a nice place compared to a "bad" place. I.e Middle England. It's the same sort of attitude in the devolved parliaments. No economic vision, just cuddly politics. Andy Burnham, seems like a far more competent Mayor, who seems to have no other ideology than to build up Manchester. Khan's ideology is primarily to make London as "open" as possible which for me, is ultimately an ineffectual use of of governing time for a city as large and intricate as London. The names he has chosen reflect his limp ideological position which is for me, why they're so annoying when the actual route lines, could have simply been used.

It's been shown that more "open" cities attract more economic activity and investment, as it makes it easier to attract the best talent. Conversely, some cities in Republican US states are starting to notice a negative economic impact due to eg the abortion ban. Khan has also recently been re-elected for a historic third term with an increased share of the vote, campaigning including this policy of renaming the Overground lines with a "commitment to celebrating London's diversity", so clearly the majority of Londoners do support it.

Either way, this isn't a politics thread or opinions on the new line names (of which there are many already, or the mods could start a new one), it's about the implementation of the new line identities.

So, back on topic, yesterday I was at Hampstead Heath station and it didn't look to me like any of the signage was new with vinyls simply covering the new identity temporarily, it looked like the old signage (but I didn't look that closely, admittedly). Do we know an established date to formally launch the new identities beyond "Autumn"?

 

[Via Bank]

That’s funny, Hampstead Heath was the first place I noticed the hidden Mildmay Line signage under vinyl overground branding - spotted that months ago, even before the Mayoral election. It’s definitely there. I spotted it at Gospel Oak and Stratford today too. If you look closely you can see the vinyl slightly embossed with the lettering from the enamel underneath. Also look for a double stripe near the top where the current orange Overground stripe is.

 

[Mikey C]

It's been shown that more "open" cities attract more economic activity and investment, as it makes it easier to attract the best talent. Conversely, some cities in Republican US states are starting to notice a negative economic impact due to eg the abortion ban. Khan has also recently been re-elected for a historic third term with an increased share of the vote, campaigning including this policy of renaming the Overground lines with a "commitment to celebrating London's diversity", so clearly the majority of Londoners do support it.

Either way, this isn't a politics thread or opinions on the new line names (of which there are many already, or the mods could start a new one), it's about the implementation of the new line identities.

So, back on topic, yesterday I was at Hampstead Heath station and it didn't look to me like any of the signage was new with vinyls simply covering the new identity temporarily, it looked like the old signage (but I didn't look that closely, admittedly). Do we know an established date to formally launch the new identities beyond "Autumn"?

Just because he was reelected, that doesn't mean there's wide support for these names, as elections aren't single issue votes. Especially as turnout was just 40%, meaning that "none of the candidates" was the winner.

 

[Recessio]

That’s funny, Hampstead Heath was the first place I noticed the hidden Mildmay Line signage under vinyl overground branding - spotted that months ago, even before the Mayoral election. It’s definitely there. I spotted it at Gospel Oak and Stratford today too. If you look closely you can see the vinyl slightly embossed with the lettering from the enamel underneath. Also look for a double stripe near the top where the current orange Overground stripe is.

Oh fair enough, I'll have to take a closer look. I remember when some of the Crossrail signs had Elizabeth vinyls placed on top, it was quite obvious, so I thought I would have noticed it haha

 

[Strathclyder]

From this Glaswegian's perspective, this rings rather like when the Glasgow Subway was renamed the Glasgow Underground in 1936, which never really caught on with the locals who continued to refer to it as the Subway. It 'only' took until 2003 for the name to officially switch back.

But who knows, these names will either gradually fall into common use or fade into obscurity. I'm hardly a savant when it comes to this kinda stuff lol

 

[thomalex]

I wish they were. I would prefer giving each line a letter:

Overground A line
Overground B line
etc.

Preserves the prominence of the Overground brand (when you start saying “get the Windrush line” is that Overground, Underground?), all lines could remain orange with a small letter next to them every now and again so not swamping the map with colour, provides a lot of room for future expansion of the network not limited by colours, is clearly a different mode, easy to follow, apolitical. I could go on.

Something similar could also be rolled out easily to the DLR (DLR A line, DLR B line etc.)

 

[boiledbeans2]

At Romford, someone asked a member of staff if the 'Push & Pull' was running. The member of staff had no idea what he was talking about. I replied, 'Yes, I'm heading that way too'.

 

[michael8]

I wish they were. I would prefer giving each line a letter:

Overground A line
Overground B line
etc.

Preserves the prominence of the Overground brand (when you start saying “get the Windrush line” is that Overground, Underground?), all lines could remain orange with a small letter next to them every now and again so not swamping the map with colour, provides a lot of room for future expansion of the network not limited by colours, is clearly a different mode, easy to follow, apolitical. I could go on.

Something similar could also be rolled out easily to the DLR (DLR A line, DLR B line etc.)

@thomalex This is a really great idea. Tells you everything you need to know. Mode then subset. Also you could just so easily add a new letter each time there is a new line opened or re-designated.

Maybe better to have DLR 1, DLR 2, etc.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I wish they were. I would prefer giving each line a letter:

Overground A line
Overground B line
etc.

Preserves the prominence of the Overground brand (when you start saying “get the Windrush line” is that Overground, Underground?), all lines could remain orange with a small letter next to them every now and again so not swamping the map with colour, provides a lot of room for future expansion of the network not limited by colours, is clearly a different mode, easy to follow, apolitical. I could go on.

Something similar could also be rolled out easily to the DLR (DLR A line, DLR B line etc.)

Very sensible. (So it won't happen!)

 

[norbitonflyer]

Which was originally to be 2 separate underground railways - the Holborn - Aldwych stub (alas now closed) is a remnant of the line from the north (the Great Northern and Strand Railway - the Northrand Line?).
The other line would have been the Brompton and Piccadilly Railway (the Bromdilly Line?). They were merged by the Underground Electric Railways Company of London.

Three railways. The section from South Kensington to Hammersmiith was originally to have been the "Deep Level District". Hence the awkward curves east of South Kensington to connect it to the terminus of the Brompton & Piccadilly at Brompton Road.

 

[Buzby]

Hahaha Just how old are you? lol

I grew up following the arrival of LT’s ‘Fleet’ line and couldn’t fathom why it was renamed ‘Jubilee’ (it was neither planned, constructed or opened in 1977). Although not based in the SE, I’ve realised I still think of it as Fleet. Perhaps the Goblin et al will exist in the minds of travellers for a long time to come following the rebrand?

 

[Ken H]

Three railways. The section from South Kensington to Hammersmiith was originally to have been the "Deep Level District". Hence the awkward curves east of South Kensington to connect it to the terminus of the Brompton & Piccadilly at Brompton Road.

What about the gap between the Great Northern and Strand at Holborn and the Brompton and Piccadilly Circus railway. Must have needed a new act of parliament.

 

[Recessio]

I grew up following the arrival of LT’s ‘Fleet’ line and couldn’t fathom why it was renamed ‘Jubilee’ (it was neither planned, constructed or opened in 1977). Although not based in the SE, I’ve realised I still think of it as Fleet. Perhaps the Goblin et al will exist in the minds of travellers for a long time to come following the rebrand?

Hasn't worked for Crossrail

 

[Wolfie]

I grew up following the arrival of LT’s ‘Fleet’ line and couldn’t fathom why it was renamed ‘Jubilee’ (it was neither planned, constructed or opened in 1977). Although not based in the SE, I’ve realised I still think of it as Fleet. Perhaps the Goblin et al will exist in the minds of travellers for a long time to come following the rebrand?

Almost certainly older people will.

I still occasionally hear some folk refer to the Hammersmith and City line as the Metropolitan line. Perhaps there are folk who still refer to the northern parts of the Jubilee line as the Bakerloo?

 

[Buzby]

Perhaps it is age-related. Changing the name of something ‘on a whim’ for marketing or branding rights I find abhorrent - it’s hard enough learning what/where something is and to be expected to relearn what it is now called for no reason other than bragging rights. It also gets nonsensical when just the name of somewhere will change between 2-5 years (when the money runs out!)

It shows contempt for the locals or those using the venues concerned. We’d all have a tantrum if Councils offered naming rights to their population centres - so Milton Keynes became ‘Valhalla’ for the duration - so why is this any different? That Greenwich carbuncle is forever the Milennium Dome, whilst O2 is a phone shop in the High Street. Crossrail was sensibly named… until it wasn’t.

 

[Dr_Intoxicated]

Almost certainly older people will.

I still occasionally hear some folk refer to the Hammersmith and City line as the Metropolitan line. Perhaps there are folk who still refer to the northern parts of the Jubilee line as the Bakerloo?

Yes will always be the metropolitan to me

 

[J-2739]

Perhaps it is age-related. Changing the name of something ‘on a whim’ for marketing or branding rights I find abhorrent - it’s hard enough learning what/where something is and to be expected to relearn what it is now called for no reason other than bragging rights. It also gets nonsensical when just the name of somewhere will change between 2-5 years (when the money runs out!)

It shows contempt for the locals or those using the venues concerned. We’d all have a tantrum if Councils offered naming rights to their population centres - so Milton Keynes became ‘Valhalla’ for the duration - so why is this any different? That Greenwich carbuncle is forever the Milennium Dome, whilst O2 is a phone shop in the High Street. Crossrail was sensibly named… until it wasn’t.

I still think the "Lioness Line" is the worst of all the names for this very reason.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That Greenwich carbuncle is forever the Milennium Dome

I'm not sure about that, though I do dislike advertising naming rights and would rather see it called something like the Greenwich Arena or something, even if it had "sponsored by O2" written next to it.

But the England womens' team has long been informally and noncommercially called the Lionesses, so that's not (a) new or (b) a brand.

 

[Buzby]

But the England womens' team has long been informally and noncommercially called the Lionesses

Double standards! We were slowly educated to be gender inclusive, there are no actresses anymore or chairmen or any number of other gender-specific titles. So where do ‘Lionesses’ come from? (Except to annoy Lions of all persuasions). No wonder adults and kids despair at any lack of consistence!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Double standards! We were slowly educated to be gender inclusive, there are no actresses anymore or chairmen or any number of other gender-specific titles. So where do ‘Lionesses’ come from?

Womens' sport is necessary because of physical differences between men and women which would limit the ability of women to compete in sport were it not a thing.

(Except to annoy Lions of all persuasions). No wonder adults and kids despair at any lack of consistence!

Anyone annoyed by this needs to take a serious look at themselves in my view. After all, the Lionesses have brought football home, as it were, and the Lions have failed to do so for years!

 

[JBuchananGB]

At Romford, someone asked a member of staff if the 'Push & Pull' was running.

Before 1974 I lived in Romford and knew the Romford to Upminster line as the Push 'n' Pull, although at that time it was worked by a DMU. I understand the name came from the operation of the line by a train comprising of a steam engine sandwiched between two coaches, each of which had driving controls at the end.

 

[Buzby]

Anyone annoyed by this needs to take a serious look at themselves in my view

Not the point I was making - this ‘distinction’ goes against gender constancy (of doing away with gender marking). It is pressed back into service when it suits. As for the sport itself, I care not a jot for the sexual orientation or gender of the player. It’s the lack of consistency in newly-accepted norms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not the point I was making - this ‘distinction’ goes against gender constancy (of doing away with gender marking). It is pressed back into service when it suits. As for the sport itself, I care not a jot for the sexual orientation or gender of the player. It’s the lack of consistency in newly-accepted norms.

The lack of consistency is for a reason, as I stated - male physical advantage in sports.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Three railways. The section from South Kensington to Hammersmiith was originally to have been the "Deep Level District". Hence the awkward curves east of South Kensington to connect it to the terminus of the Brompton & Piccadilly at Brompton Road.

And also the reason for the different levels of the Picc platforms at South Ken - to avoid conflicting moves at the junction when the express version of the District (ie the continuation of what's now the Piccadilly under the District) was built. Why was the plan to run an express east-west line under the District not pursued?

 

[sprunt]

I grew up following the arrival of LT’s ‘Fleet’ line and couldn’t fathom why it was renamed ‘Jubilee’ (it was neither planned, constructed or opened in 1977).

According to Wikipedia it was a manifesto promise by the victorious Tories in the 1977 GLC election.

 

[Buzby]

was a manifesto promise

I wonder how much they charged?

 

[edwin_m]

And also the reason for the different levels of the Picc platforms at South Ken - to avoid conflicting moves at the junction when the express version of the District (ie the continuation of what's now the Piccadilly under the District) was built. Why was the plan to run an express east-west line under the District not pursued?

I think it was when the companies that became the Piccadilly and the District came under common ownership (Yerkes). The Piccadilly did what the District express service would have done over much of the route, so would have made the case for another parallel line much weaker. It also provided a through service into the West End so would have brought in more new riders.