New order for LM 350S question

[387star]

Are the additional LM 350s which I think are due to enter service in 2013-2014 going to replace the 7 321s LM still uses?

If not when does the lease expire?

It seems very little interior work has been done to them so presumably they are not staying long?

FCC will no doubt make good use of them

 

[bnsf734]

I am pretty sure the additional 350's will be used on 110mph extra Trent Valley services and the 321's are being retained and used on their current services.

 

[sprinterguy]

London Midland's seven 321s will be retained after the new 350s arrive, as the 350s are to provide additional capacity. I don't know how long London Midland intend to keep hold of the 321s.

 

[Class377/5]

Are the additional LM 350s which I think are due to enter service in 2013-2014 going to replace the 7 321s LM still uses?

If not when does the lease expire?

It seems very little interior work has been done to them so presumably they are not staying long?

FCC will no doubt make good use of them

The 350/3 will be used on additional 110mph services in the peak and extending some services under the wires in Brum (can't remember where). The 321's are to stay with LM.

FCC is getting replacement stock for 321/317/319/377 with the new 700 stock.

LM is looking at some 700's (Desiro Cities) to replace 321's but it won't be in this franchise.

 

[IanXC]

I am pretty sure the additional 350's will be 110mph for extra Trent Valley services and the 321's are being retained and used on their current services.

That's also my understanding, the 350/3s will be 110mph rated (as per the 350/1s) and have a similar layout to the 1s.

What has been mooted (by me and others, although I think we're along way off an official plan) is that the stock procured for TP North electrification should include units to replace the 350/4s, which could then be cascaded to London Midland to displace their 321s for newly electrified routes around Leeds.

 

[northwichcat]

What has been mooted (by me and others, although I think we're along way off an official plan) is that the stock procured for TP North electrification should include units to replace the 350/4s, which could then be cascaded to London Midland to displace their 321s for newly electrified routes around Leeds.

I think that may depend on franchise reorganisation and whether commuter IEP goes ahead.

If TPE gets split up then Manchester-Scotland may not be in the same franchise as Liverpool-Newcastle.

While commuter IEP may replace 350s on Northampton-London, which may leave a surplus of 350s at LM without getting additional ones from TPE.

 

[D365]

Several questions: Are 350/1s getting the 110mph upgrade? If the 350/4s are moved from TPE if and when they get a larger EMU fleet, could they replace the 321s? Could 323s run Abbey Line? Could it be converted into a tram to Hatfield? Wouldn't work as a Met/Bakerloo extenstion without a flyover at Watford Junction, which wouldn't really be worth it.

 

[sprinterguy]

Several questions: Are 350/1s getting the 110mph upgrade?

Yes, this seems to be what has been reported.

If the 350/4s are moved from TPE if and when they get a larger EMU fleet, could they replace the 321s?

See the post from IanXC directly above yours:

What has been mooted (by me and others, although I think we're along way off an official plan) is that the stock procured for TP North electrification should include units to replace the 350/4s, which could then be cascaded to London Midland to displace their 321s for newly electrified routes around Leeds.

Could 323s run Abbey Line?

Hypothetically, yes, but that would entail an awfully long and inconvenient ECS move for a single unit all the way from their West Midlands base, and the drivers employed on the Abbey Line might not sign 323s. Plus the 323 fleet is used to the full on local services around the West Midlands so additional units would be needed to work services in the West Midlands in the place of the 323s. I believe that three of the new 350/3s are earmarked for working services presently worked by 323s (Such as Walsall - New Street - Wolverhampton), freeing up 323s for the extension of Cross City services to Bromsgrove and to provide additional capacity.

Could it be converted into a tram to Hatfield? Wouldn't work as a Met/Bakerloo extenstion without a flyover at Watford Junction, which wouldn't really be worth it.

There is presently an active proposal from Hertfordshire County Council, the DfT and Network Rail to convert the Abbey Line to tram-train operation, with a corresponding increase in frequency to half-hourly and perhaps even every 20 minutes during the main part of the day.

 

[D365]

Hypothetically, yes, but that would entail an awfully long and inconvenient ECS move for a single unit all the way from their West Midlands base, and the drivers employed on the Abbey Line might not sign 323s. Plus the 323 fleet is used to the full on local services around the West Midlands so additional units would be needed to work services in the West Midlands in the place of the 323s. I believe that three of the new 350/3s are earmarked for working services presently worked by 323s (Such as Walsall - New Street - Wolverhampton), freeing up 323s for the extension of Cross City services to Bromsgrove and to provide additional capacity.

Fair enough, would be more trouble than it's worth.

here is presently an active proposal from Hertfordshire County Council, the DfT and Network Rail to convert the Abbey Line to tram-train operation, with a corresponding increase in frequency to half-hourly and perhaps even every 20 minutes during the main part of the day.

The only problem I have with light rail converts/extenstions is that they cannot be used by mainline trains, so small systems like this are rather non-standard. I like the plans in general though.

The 7 321/4s would be useful elsewhere, but would only be used till 2018 or so on GN. I assume that if any of the outer-suburban fleets remains after Thameslink for peaks (and King's Lynn if the IEP batch doesn't turn up), it would be the 365s.

 

[northwichcat]

The only problem I have with light rail converts/extenstions is that they cannot be used by mainline trains, so small systems like this are rather non-standard. I like the plans in general though.

If they plan to keep the Network Rail signalling and to use tram-trains and not trams then the line can remain part of the National Rail network.

I think it's unfortunate that the DfT won't allow any tram-trains until the Sheffield trial has been undertaken. They could easily be used to provide services on branches with either no passenger service or a limited passenger service then if patronage grows they could be switched for larger ordinary trains, allowing a cascade to a similar line.

For instance, Stockport to Denton to Victoria gets 2 tram-trains per hour. Then if usage grows enough they get larger ordinary trains instead, leaving the tram-trains to provide a service on the Northwich to Sandbach Crewe line, which has proposals for re-opening (currently freight and diversions only) but aren't as an advanced stage as a proper service on the Denton line.

An extension of the latter service to beyond Altrincham would also provide options for a direct service between a heavy rail line and a light rail line without a change of vehicle - a key selling point of a tram-train.

The 7 321/4s would be useful elsewhere, but would only be used till 2018 or so on GN.

By which time the Leeds area will be able to operate more electric local services as a result of additional electrification.

 

[Class377/5]

Several questions: Are 350/1s getting the 110mph upgrade?

The 350/1 have had the nods already as 110mph off peak services start in December.

The 7 321/4s would be useful elsewhere, but would only be used till 2018 or so on GN. I assume that if any of the outer-suburban fleets remains after Thameslink for peaks (and King's Lynn if the IEP batch doesn't turn up), it would be the 365s.

The 321 are off with the 365 and 313 fleets kept.

 

[D365]

The 350/1 have had the nods already as 110mph off peak services start in December.

Cheers for confirming.

The 321 are off with the 365 and 313 fleets kept.

And the 12 317/1s, which I assume will go through the same rebuild as the other 317s. A number of rebuilt 317s and 321s could replace the Anglia 315s left after Crossrail, and any of these could move to new electrics. We have a number of cascade options.

 

[172212]

I heard a rumour that once the new 350s come (required for extra capacity), spare 350/1 and 350/2s will be used on the Wolverhampton - Walsall line

 

[tbtc]

commuter IEP may replace 350s on Northampton-London, which may leave a surplus of 350s at LM without getting additional ones from TPE.

I can't see LM having a surplus of EMUs for long, seeing as the Chase line is being electrified as well as the Coventry - Nuneaton one (and the Marston Vale etc), plus the Bromsgrove extension to Cross City services and the much discussed plans for enhanced WCML services.

 

[northwichcat]

I can't see LM having a surplus of EMUs for long, seeing as the Chase line is being electrified as well as the Coventry - Nuneaton one (and the Marston Vale etc), plus the Bromsgrove extension to Cross City services and the much discussed plans for enhanced WCML services.

Don't forget there is no franchise commitment for LM to run direct trains between Crewe and London and I don't think it applies to Birmingham to London either so long term there might be no 350s south of Northampton at all.

 

[Class377/5]

London Midland have been looking at stock for after the 350/4's arrive.