New North Wales to Manchester train services

[185143]

If thats the case, they are using the three spare Mark3s off Gerald, it should be four Mark3s, I was told a movement from Canton taking stock up North occurred last week, so one wonders whats happened to the four Mark 3s. ATW raved about.
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Where did you get this from?

One of my friends told me. Admittedly a normal, but I assumed he would know the difference! I travelled home on it though on the 16:50. Does anyone know how long it will stay as a three coach train as it seemed to be nearly as busy as the 175 was today!

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but was the 17:50 from Manchester to Holyhead formed of 2x175/0 today? Looked like it when I passed it!

 

[Erniescooper]

One of my friends told me. Admittedly a normal, but I assumed he would know the difference! I travelled home on it though on the 16:50. Does anyone know how long it will stay as a three coach train as it seemed to be nearly as busy as the 175 was today!

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but was the 17:50 from Manchester to Holyhead formed of 2x175/0 today? Looked like it when I passed it!

It was 2x175 today and by the looks of it will be 2x175 for the rest of the new timetable.

 

[PHILIPE]

Booked 2x175/0 and splits at Llandudno Jn for Holyhead and Llandudno

 

[TDK]

ATW have been trying to get into the airport for ages, they dont fit so they get rejected.

Hence the 50 minute holdover at Mayfield loop

 

[Starmill]

Hence the 50 minute holdover at Mayfield loop

Welcome to the world of franchise madness. Could ATW run to and from the Airport reliably, if there were a path, without increasing the required stock? Probably.

So why do two trains an hour that are overstretched and always late from the North TPE core continue to reverse at Piccadilly to serve the Airport?

If York - Airport became York - Piccadilly, no stations would lose direct trains to the Airport, if the North Wales ATW services went there how many stations would gain direct airport services?

OK, not as simple as that. But the point is a franchise boundary - and presumably the TPE service level commitment, are standing somewhere in the way of improving reliability and fleet utilisation. No?

 

[Philip]

A few observations from TRUST:

It seems there are still three 175/1s booked for North Wales-Manchester duties during the week and it seems there are still four 175/0 diagrams on Manchester-South Wales during the week. This contradicts the theory when the new service was announced that ATW were planning on covering all or nearly all Manchester-South Wales services with 3-car 175s.

The 13:50 Picc-Llandudno, 18:50 Picc-Chester and the 07:09 Birmingham-Llandudno are now booked as 3-car 175s, in the old timetable they were booked as 175/0. The 18:50 from Piccadilly then works the 20:34 Chester to Holyhead. The 20:50 Piccadilly-Chester (175/1) then works the 22:3x Chester to Shrewsbury where it stables overnight to work to Birmingham the next morning. The 22:36 Piccadilly-Shrewsbury is now a 158, was a 175/1. The inbound working from Carmarthen at this time works the 22:12 to Chester. This arrangement used to happen a few years ago.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If York - Airport became York - Piccadilly, no stations would lose direct trains to the Airport, if the North Wales ATW services went there how many stations would gain direct airport services?

The matter of middle/long distance rail services running into Manchester Airport station is a matter of serving a large airport with a vast range of long-haul and short-haul destinations that are just not available to other Northern airports. It is a facility that Manchester Airport stresses the importance of in bringing passengers by rail without the need for changing at Manchester Piccadilly station far quicker than the coaches to Manchester Airport operated by National Express. Have you ever seen how long the National Express service from York to Manchester Airport is actually scheduled to take to there ?

If and when the Ordsall Chord project actually does see the light of day, matters of rail provision then will be somewhat operationally different.

 

[merlodlliw]

There are lots of pictures of yesterdays inaugural run, however the Mark 3 coach numbers give the game away that they are Geralds spare set, plundered from Cardiff Canton, however this is stock paid for by Welsh Government for use on its Open Access service in the £3.5 million refurbish, the rental from the rosco is already paid up front by WG.

Charlie Hume Editor of North Wales Rail newsboard tells us

This new service will be fun for enthusiasts, and we wish it success, but the associated reorganisation means further erosion of the 'clockface' timetable of which Arriva were once so proud. In particular, Llandudno's through service to places east of Llandudno Junction now has a mid-day gap between the 11:40 and 14:44 departures, with only two shuttles to The Junction between.

link for photos http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

 

[Thomas6187]

Due to the failure of the loco set, this train will be formed by a 175 this morning

It's appears that the fault has been fixed, as it just departed toward longsight

 

[PHILIPE]

Due to the failure of the loco set, this train will be formed by a 175 this morning

It's appears that the fault has been fixed, as it just departed toward longsight

Don't quite follow what you are trying to say.

 

[merlodlliw]

Booked 2x175/0 and splits at Llandudno Jn for Holyhead and Llandudno

are they 2x2 or 2 x 3 175s? out of interest

 

[berneyarms]

are they 2x2 or 2 x 3 175s? out of interest

Class 175/0 are two car.
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There are lots of pictures of yesterdays inaugural run, however the Mark 3 coach numbers give the game away that they are Geralds spare set, plundered from Cardiff Canton, however this is stock paid for by Welsh Government for use on its Open Access service in the £3.5 million refurbish, the rental from the rosco is already paid up front by WG.

Charlie Hume Editor of North Wales Rail newsboard tells us


link for photos http://nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

I am going to repeat my post from above.

Reported elsewhere that the refurbishment work on the new set is not yet complete, and that permission was granted to use the spare WAG set in the interim.

No great conspiracy I'm afraid.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

If York - Airport became York - Piccadilly, no stations would lose direct trains to the Airport, if the North Wales ATW services went there how many stations would gain direct airport services?

About 20 stations (forgetting the current couple of early/late services), although many are small.
Warrington, Chester and the Llandudno Jn area are the main catchments.
(not many from Warrington though, it's a long way round compared to the M56).

Network Rail did invite bids for using the extra Airport capacity created when P3 opened, but then didn't allocate any more than the out of hours paths.
With P4 in place, there will be even more capacity (but no more at Slade Lane Jn, which is where the bottleneck is).

Network Rail has also said that parking a train at Mayfield as happens now causes more congestion than running it through to the airport.

 

[Thomas6187]

Don't quite follow what you are trying to say.

I meant originally that the loco set had failed and wouldn't be running. However it appears the fault was sorted and the set ran as normal, but with a late start from Crewe

 

[PHILIPE]

A few observations from TRUST:

It seems there are still three 175/1s booked for North Wales-Manchester duties during the week and it seems there are still four 175/0 diagrams on Manchester-South Wales during the week. This contradicts the theory when the new service was announced that ATW were planning on covering all or nearly all Manchester-South Wales services with 3-car 175s.

The 13:50 Picc-Llandudno, 18:50 Picc-Chester and the 07:09 Birmingham-Llandudno are now booked as 3-car 175s, in the old timetable they were booked as 175/0. The 18:50 from Piccadilly then works the 20:34 Chester to Holyhead. The 20:50 Piccadilly-Chester (175/1) then works the 22:3x Chester to Shrewsbury where it stables overnight to work to Birmingham the next morning. The 22:36 Piccadilly-Shrewsbury is now a 158, was a 175/1. The inbound working from Carmarthen at this time works the 22:12 to Chester. This arrangement used to happen a few years ago.

The working involving the Carmarthen has been happening on a Friday for a while to swap a 175/0 and a 175/1 over. The 22.28 Chester runs to Wolverhampton and returning to Shrewsbury but not going through this week due Engineering Work.
Incidentally, perhaps not directly Manchester linked, there is a 5D76 21+53 Wrexham to Chester in Real Time Trains. Can anybody throw any light on it, assuming the 150 off the early finishing Bidston still forms the 20 47 to Shrewsbury

 

[youngiecj]

A few observations from TRUST:

It seems there are still three 175/1s booked for North Wales-Manchester duties during the week and it seems there are still four 175/0 diagrams on Manchester-South Wales during the week. This contradicts the theory when the new service was announced that ATW were planning on covering all or nearly all Manchester-South Wales services with 3-car 175s.

The 13:50 Picc-Llandudno, 18:50 Picc-Chester and the 07:09 Birmingham-Llandudno are now booked as 3-car 175s, in the old timetable they were booked as 175/0. The 18:50 from Piccadilly then works the 20:34 Chester to Holyhead. The 20:50 Piccadilly-Chester (175/1) then works the 22:3x Chester to Shrewsbury where it stables overnight to work to Birmingham the next morning. The 22:36 Piccadilly-Shrewsbury is now a 158, was a 175/1. The inbound working from Carmarthen at this time works the 22:12 to Chester. This arrangement used to happen a few years ago.

Travelled on the 13:50 today and indeed it was a 3 car 175101.
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Had a quick run on this today on the 13:01 HHD-Manc, 67001 with the honours. I was surprised how busy this service was arriving into Manchester, especially from Warrington..

 

[merlodlliw]

I meant originally that the loco set had failed and wouldn't be running. However it appears the fault was sorted and the set ran as normal, but with a late start from Crewe

I know where you may have got this from, ATWs intranet showed the Loco hauled would be three cars in place of four, this was sent out in the night to stations and others on the internal intranet.I was shown it last evening.
A few presumed this to be a three car 175,

Class 175/0 are two car.

Thank you Berny Arms
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Incidentally, perhaps not directly Manchester linked, there is a 5D76 21+53 Wrexham to Chester in Real Time Trains. Can anybody throw any light on it, assuming the 150 off the early finishing Bidston still forms the 20 47 to Shrewsbury

I have no idea about this stock, the Chester stabled SD77 returns far later and is still working on the line, the Shrewsbury 150 departs platform three after connection with the VT from Euston. Its a mystery.

 

[Philip]

What is the booked traction for the 14:30 Manchester to Milford Haven in the new timetable?

 

[Jez]

It was a 2 car 175 today but that one was booked as a 3 car, so im not sure.

So which Manchester to South Wales are still booked as 2 car after the timetable changes?

 

[PHILIPE]

Same as before on the Manchesters. 2 Cars instead of 3 is frequent.
Holyheads have changed, i.e. 05 08 ex Cardiff becomes 2 vice 3 and 08 05 ex Holyhead becomes 3 vice 2. Should be able to follow the Diagram through.

Already posted on this thread - Post #63

 

[Jez]

Thanks Philipe. I thought the idea of changing one of the North Wales diagrams was to free up more 3 car 175s for Manchester-South Wales?

 

[PHILIPE]

Thanks Philipe. I thought the idea of changing one of the North Wales diagrams was to free up more 3 car 175s for Manchester-South Wales?

So did everybody else at first but it turned out it was to increase capacity on the North Wales to Manchester corridor.

 

[Philip]

Same as before on the Manchesters. 2 Cars instead of 3 is frequent.
Holyheads have changed, i.e. 05 08 ex Cardiff becomes 2 vice 3 and 08 05 ex Holyhead becomes 3 vice 2. Should be able to follow the Diagram through.

Already posted on this thread - Post #63

Thanks. I asked because it has been a 175/0 this week, guess they must be short of a 3-car set where the diagram starts from.

For Manchester to South Wales:

06:30 Milford Haven 2-car 175/0
07:30 Carmarthen 175/0
10:34 Milford Haven 175/0
11:30 Carmarthen 175/0
18:30 Carmarthen 175/0
19:30 Carmarthen 175/0
22:36 Shrewsbury 158

The rest are 3-car sets.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thanks. I asked because it has been a 175/0 this week. For Manchester to South Wales:

06:30 Milford Haven 2-car 175/0
07:30 Carmarthen 175/0
10:34 Milford Haven 175/0
11:30 Carmarthen 175/0
18:30 Carmarthen 175/0
19:30 Carmarthen 175/0
22:36 Shrewsbury 158

Can someone say what are the normal loadings like on those 2-car services that you have shown above?

 

[merlodlliw]

Can someone say what are the normal loadings like on those 2-car services that you have shown above?

I can only comment on Cardiff to Shrewsbury, at peak times the two car units are full & standing, ATW told us they intended to put more three car 175s on the Manchester/South Wales route, however a three car 175 appears to be on hold at both Holyhead & Cardiff in case Gerald fails, but that is my opinion.

If you refer to the ATW letter earlier this year, it stated their intention to put more three car 175s on the Manchester/South Wales runs.I don't know what has happened to the 175 replaced by the loco hauled last Monday.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Can someone say what are the normal loadings like on those 2-car services that you have shown above?

Can be busy on certain parts of the route at certain times of day.
3 cars is often too much, but the diagrams have to cover Cardiff and Manchester commuter peaks.
The school-time peak into Hereford from the north is surprisingly big.

 

[merlodlliw]

Can be busy on certain parts of the route at certain times of day.
3 cars is often too much, but the diagrams have to cover Cardiff and Manchester commuter peaks.
The school-time peak into Hereford from the north is surprisingly big.

I was always surprised at the large numbers of school children boarding at Hereford in the late afternoon for Ludlow & Leominster.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Can be busy on certain parts of the route at certain times of day.
3 cars is often too much, but the diagrams have to cover Cardiff and Manchester commuter peaks.
The school-time peak into Hereford from the north is surprisingly big.

The 0719 off Shrewsbury is a 3 car 175 and its full and standing on leaving Leominster especially at the starts of terms.

The Bluecoat school in Hereford is a private Secondary and attracts from Luldow and Leominster also the FE College in Hereford has a large number coming in from Leominster they had advertising up at Abergavenny station last year stating they subsidize travel costs by rail.- don't know how many FE students commute cross border.

There's already people planing to go to FE or 6th Form College in Shrewsbury in Sep 15 once Cambrian has extra trains from Newtown and Welshpool.
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I was always surprised at the large numbers of school children boarding at Hereford in the late afternoon for Ludlow & Leominster.

at least they spread out over several services unlike in the morning!

 

[Jez]

I find the stretch between Swansea and Cardiff to be very busy a lot of time. Today i travelled on a 3 car and it was full and standing after Bridgend, ok it was the Satuday before Christmas so to be expected, but this shows that even 3 cars struggle at times. Swansea to Cardiff is always busy on a Saturday. After Cardiff the train was quite lightly loaded which surprised me as I expected it to be busier with people making the Christmas getaway.

One suggestion could be to terminate everything at Carmarthen as im pretty sure Carmarthen to Milford doesnt need a 3 car. They could have a 150 as a shuttle to work Carmarthen to Milford every 2 hours Im sure ATW have a few spare 150s still. It could interwork with the pembroke docks to swap sets between Carmarthen and canton. That might free up a set for more 3 cars on the Carmarthen to Manchester route.

 

[animationmilo]

What is booked on the 15:50 Manchester to Llandudno these days?