New North Wales to Manchester train services

[merlodlliw]

There are plans of a Hovercraft link Rhyl to Liverpool and Airport I read.

I recall the old service Rhyls Hortons Nose to the Wirral, heres a link to the new idea, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-28297201 In my opinion more of a day trip in Summer, In the 60s Rhyl was a family seaside resort, now its "one to avoid",efferts are being made to clean the town up,but sadly Rhyls West End area reputation will take a long time to recover.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I recall the old service Rhyls Hortons Nose to the Wirral, heres a link to the new idea, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-28297201 In my opinion more of a day trip in Summer, In the 60s Rhyl was a family seaside resort, now its "one to avoid",efferts are being made to clean the town up,but sadly Rhyls West End area reputation will take a long time to recover.

I was auditing an EU project in the west end of Rhyl a few years back and was taken aback to be asked if I wanted any drugs! The phone box outside was apparently the place to get them at a certain time and low and behold at the said time a track suited low life appeared looking shifty.

 

[merlodlliw]

I was auditing an EU project in the west end of Rhyl a few years back and was taken aback to be asked if I wanted any drugs! The phone box outside was apparently the place to get them at a certain time and low and behold at the said time a track suited low life appeared looking shifty.

Sadly this is still the situation in Rhyls West End now.

 

[Welshman]

Sadly this is still the situation in Rhyls West End now.

Whereas, of course, you can't get drugs anywhere else in the country.

What's all this to do with the New North Wales services?

 

[merlodlliw]

Whereas, of course, you can't get drugs anywhere else in the country.

What's all this to do with the New North Wales services?

Point taken, the original Hovercraft mentioned departed from the West End area of Rhyl.

 

[ValleyLines142]

I think we are guessing here but there ought to be an EMU solution for Bath-Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea (319s?).
FGW will also be cascading 16x westwards from the Thames Valley to Bristol so that will also free up some 15x.
175s ought to go to Manchester-Cardiff and North Wales to Manchester/Birmingham/Cardiff.
But they have to sort out the Valleys wiring first...

Why are we going to have old stock? Why can't we have 377s or 379s!

I do think 2 car 175s are extreme; they're just not big enough for Cardiff to Manchester! I technically would say that's an intercity route, so I think Voyager-length trains are ideal. And as for 150s and 153s appearing on a Sunday, that just makes my skin crawl!

 

[frodshamfella]

I recall the old service Rhyls Hortons Nose to the Wirral, heres a link to the new idea, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-28297201 In my opinion more of a day trip in Summer, In the 60s Rhyl was a family seaside resort, now its "one to avoid",efferts are being made to clean the town up,but sadly Rhyls West End area reputation will take a long time to recover.

I have a bit of a soft spot for Hovercrafts, as a kid was taken over to the Isle of White by an uncle from Sandown, it landed on the beach, and I was amazed by it. When I was a bit older once of twice went to Boulogne with Hoverspeed, felt like an aircraft inside ( in fact the ticket showed the departures with flight numbers). They were monster machines, huge. All gone now, so glad I experienced it.

Thinking of the Rhyl service to Liverpool ( and Liverpool Airport) I flew to Copenhagen years ago, at the time SAS operated hovercrafts from Copenhagen Airport over to Malmo, so its been done before and not too far fetched. Would be nice to see again
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I recall the old service Rhyls Hortons Nose to the Wirral, heres a link to the new idea, http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-east-wales-28297201 In my opinion more of a day trip in Summer, In the 60s Rhyl was a family seaside resort, now its "one to avoid",efferts are being made to clean the town up,but sadly Rhyls West End area reputation will take a long time to recover.

Heres a photo of the SAS service...

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=s...Fwww.aladdin.st%2Flaurin%2Faurum.html;538;350

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whereas, of course, you can't get drugs anywhere else in the country.

What's all this to do with the New North Wales services?

Indeed so. May I enquire if certain areas of Rhyl these days show a similar resemblance to certain areas of Morecambe ?

 

[merlodlliw]

Indeed so. May I enquire if certain areas of Rhyl these days show a similar resemblance to certain areas of Morecambe ?

Indeed they do, long gone are the fun fairs,the Pavilion with its Circus,the indoor swimming centre ,floral hall,etc etc.
Attempts are being made to tidy Rhyl up,but alas, it will take years.
I always enjoyed the radio rail cruise from Rhyl via now closed lines,Vale of Clwyd & Dee Valley,plus the evening mystery rail tours.

Back on track, I have seen a letter from The WG Minister to Mark Isherwood AM, passing on the proposed axing of the 0634 direct service Llandudno to Manchester to the North Wales Transport Task Force, after concerns raised by constituents who will lose the service in North Wales.
For some technical reason I am not able to put it up.

 

[SprinterMan]

Hello all,
The train times for the North Wales Coast for December are now up on OTT. There loco-hauled services are not yet on there as they are still undergoing finalisation. As far as I can see, the following changes include:

1G93 0514 Holyhead - Birmingham International is diverted to Manchester and replaced by the following trains:
1H81 0513 Holyhead - Manchester Piccadilly
1K05 0646 Llandudno - Crewe
1G93 0734 Crewe - Birmingham International which apparently still combines with a Wrexham portion at Shrewsbury (the new Aberystwyth trains are not in the system yet either)

1G31 0715 Holyhead - Birmingham International is terminated at Crewe and replaced by the following trains:
1K31 0715 Holyhead - Crewe
1G31 1032 Shrewsbury - Birmingham International (maybe to start back from Aberystwyth, who knows? :P )

1D35 1050 Manchester Piccadilly - Bangor (Gwynedd) now terminates at Llandudno Junction so it can work back to Manchester in the path of the current 1H88 1244 Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly as this is formed from 1D34 0950 Manchester Piccadilly - Llandudno, which will be replaced by the new loco-hauled train to Holyhead that is not yet in the system. Sad to see Llandudno lose more trains The loco hauled train will then return to Manchester in the path of the current 1H89 1331 Bangor (Gwynedd) - Manchester Piccadilly.

Adam

 

[merlodlliw]

Hello all,
The train times for the North Wales Coast for December are now up on OTT. There loco-hauled services are not yet on there as they are still undergoing finalisation. As far as I can see, the following changes include:

1G93 0514 Holyhead - Birmingham International is diverted to Manchester and replaced by the following trains:
1H81 0513 Holyhead - Manchester Piccadilly
1K05 0646 Llandudno - Crewe
1G93 0734 Crewe - Birmingham International which apparently still combines with a Wrexham portion at Shrewsbury (the new Aberystwyth trains are not in the system yet either)

1G31 0715 Holyhead - Birmingham International is terminated at Crewe and replaced by the following trains:
1K31 0715 Holyhead - Crewe
1G31 1032 Shrewsbury - Birmingham International (maybe to start back from Aberystwyth, who knows? :P )

1D35 1050 Manchester Piccadilly - Bangor (Gwynedd) now terminates at Llandudno Junction so it can work back to Manchester in the path of the current 1H88 1244 Llandudno - Manchester Piccadilly as this is formed from 1D34 0950 Manchester Piccadilly - Llandudno, which will be replaced by the new loco-hauled train to Holyhead that is not yet in the system. Sad to see Llandudno lose more trains The loco hauled train will then return to Manchester in the path of the current 1H89 1331 Bangor (Gwynedd) - Manchester Piccadilly.

Adam

Thanks for that Adam, I see the new train to Manchester from North Wales is running half an hour earlier for commuters, it then becomes the four coach 158 from Chester ex 0712 , I presume will be plus the 2 car 158 ex Wrexham at 0600 as now. Dont forget Wrexham's 0747 runs to next May.It looks like Llandudno is losing two Manchester direct trains from December.

 

[SprinterMan]

Thanks for that Adam, I see the new train to Manchester from North Wales is running half an hour earlier for commuters, it then becomes the four coach 158 from Chester ex 0712 , I presume will be plus the 2 car 158 ex Wrexham at 0600 as now. Dont forget Wrexham's 0747 runs to next May.It looks like Llandudno is losing two Manchester direct trains from December.

Yayy, this was useful to someone 1H81 runs half an hour earlier than what? :P Oh right, are the new Aberystwyth trains coming next summer then? I confused myself

Adam

 

[PHILIPE]

I wouldn't read too much into this info as absolutely correct yet the Timetables would still be at the preparation stage.

 

[merlodlliw]

Yayy, this was useful to someone 1H81 runs half an hour earlier than what? :P Oh right, are the new Aberystwyth trains coming next summer then? I confused myself

Adam

The Holyhead to Manchester departs from the Junction half an hour earlier than the current ex Llandudno 0634 to Manchester

I wouldn't read too much into this info as absolutely correct yet the Timetables would still be at the preparation stage. (Philipe)

Agree, but it gives an idea of what ATW are up to.

 

[mikestone1952]

OTT currently shows no departure from Llandudno between 11.44 and 13.08, which would presumably be a franchise breach if correct.
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I hadn't picked up the 07.15 Holyhead terminating at Crewe - it appears to go back as an 09.40 to Chester, go on to the depot and come off again to attach to the 15.08 LLO-MAN - presumably it can't get down the coast to cover those gaps before the 08.10 Euston, but it ought to be possible to follow or attach to the next Cardiff ?
;
Oddly the ECS off Crewe CS is in but the 07.16 to Chester still shows at 07.23 and dmu.
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TOCs do really need to accept that this kind of information is now in the public domain and come clean with their plans from the start.

 

[merlodlliw]

OTT currently shows no departure from Llandudno between 11.44 and 13.08, which would presumably be a franchise breach if correct.
;
I hadn't picked up the 07.15 Holyhead terminating at Crewe - it appears to go back as an 09.40 to Chester, go on to the depot and come off again to attach to the 15.08 LLO-MAN - presumably it can't get down the coast to cover those gaps before the 08.10 Euston, but it ought to be possible to follow or attach to the next Cardiff ?
;
Oddly the ECS off Crewe CS is in but the 07.16 to Chester still shows at 07.23 and dmu.
;
TOCs do really need to accept that this kind of information is now in the public domain and come clean with their plans from the start.

The new Dec 2014 timetables were released for consultation yesterday,I have the North Wales set,due to technical difficulty I am unable to put them up along with ATWs stakeholders letter, if anyone would like to see them please pm me with a valid e mail address for copies.
We have already discovered many deletions especially Bank Holidays,consultation BTW ends Sept 12th.
Bob

 

[The Planner]

I wouldn't read too much into this info as absolutely correct yet the Timetables would still be at the preparation stage.

By whom? They were offered by us a good while back and the operators have responded. May 15 prep has already started.

 

[PHILIPE]

By whom? They were offered by us a good while back and the operators have responded. May 15 prep has already started.

There is usually tidying up to be done up until the deadline. I have been a Train Planner myself, by the way.

 

[The Planner]

Tidying up where the TOC wants dwell times, public differentials, profit centres and other operating codes tweaked yes, not wholesale retiming to what's offered.

 

[merlodlliw]

There is usually tidying up to be done up until the deadline. I have been a Train Planner myself, by the way.

Due to my inability to put up the information,I presume lack of knowledge with computers, I have manually transcribed Michaels Vaughans last comment on his very substantial six page letter to stakeholders.

I would however point out that the information provided here may be subject to amendment following some items requiring Network Rail validation and approval.
Michael Vaughan Head of Franchise & Stakeholder Management ATW

I have e mailed those members of Rail UK Forums,who asked for the timetables and letter I have quoted from,

Bob

 

[mikestone1952]

It would appear the huge gap from Llandudno is planned.
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[LNW-GW Joint]

It would appear the huge gap from Llandudno is planned.
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The 0712 LHCS Chester-Manchester appears to start from Holyhead at 0514 and not Crewe as rumoured. It also waits 13 minutes at Chester.
The 0618 Chester-Cardiff (0428 ex Holyhead) also waits 13 minutes at Chester.
These schedules are far from optimal.
We also have the spectacle of two LHCS services chasing each other up the coast from Holyhead to Chester 15 minutes apart.
Four off-peak Llandudno (or Jn) trains extend from Manchester Piccadilly to Manchester Airport and return.
The 1050 LHCS Manchester-Holyhead is fast from Chester-Llandudno Jn (after being all stops Manchester-Chester).

 

[mikestone1952]

Where did you get that - the hauled set works the 07.35 from Chester and the 09.50 from Manchester, which the consultation timetable shows as calling at Oxford Road,, Earlestown, WBQ,(franchise breach not serving Runcorn E, Frodsham, Helsby?) Chester, Flint, Rhyl and Colwyn Bay, not the 10.50.
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The net effect appear to be that the hauled set releases a 175 for the 07.15 from Holyhead, in turn releasing a 158 to form the extra set on the 07.31 Shrewsbury-Birmingham International, plus an amount of shuffling 2 and 3 car 175s.
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[merlodlliw]

The 0712 LHCS Chester-Manchester appears to start from Holyhead at 0514 and not Crewe as rumoured. It also waits 13 minutes at Chester.

Perhaps I am reading this wrong, it is my impression from reading the consultation timetables,the 0514 ex Holyhead is a DMU diverted to Manchester Picc in place of Birmingham as now, departs Chester at 0712.Michael Vaughans letter implies this.
Current the 0712 Chester/Manchester is a four car 158,two cars off the 0600 Wrexham to Chester.

After £millions being spent on tidying Llandudno station, it now very much appears Llandudno to Junction is becoming very much a local branch line after losing more direct Manchesters.
Abergele loses its only early morning direct Manchester service and both Abergele/Shotton and Deganwy are eliminated from LHCS services.
I questioned why the new Loco Hauled service will start at Llandudno , is it because Deganwy/Abergele/Shotton stations can not accommodate four Mark threes/DVT and class 67?, perhaps thats the reason, however after Llandudno losing the current 0634 175 direct all stations to Manchester, it does mean up to a forty minute earlier departure for those working in the North West of England, who currently travel from North East Wales.

 

[mikestone1952]

Doe anyone know if this mythical Abergele-Manchester commuter exists?

 

[Viscount702]

Would I be correct in thinking that the timetable as currently shown in OTT is incorrect at present

 

[berneyarms]

Perhaps I am reading this wrong, it is my impression from reading the consultation timetables,the 0514 ex Holyhead is a DMU diverted to Manchester Picc in place of Birmingham as now, departs Chester at 0712.Michael Vaughans letter implies this.
Current the 0712 Chester/Manchester is a four car 158,two cars off the 0600 Wrexham to Chester.

After £millions being spent on tidying Llandudno station, it now very much appears Llandudno to Junction is becoming very much a local branch line after losing more direct Manchesters.
Abergele loses its only early morning direct Manchester service and both Abergele/Shotton and Deganwy are eliminated from LHCS services.
I questioned why the new Loco Hauled service will start at Llandudno , is it because Deganwy/Abergele/Shotton stations can not accommodate four Mark threes/DVT and class 67?, perhaps thats the reason, however after Llandudno losing the current 0634 175 direct all stations to Manchester, it does mean up to a forty minute earlier departure for those working in the North West of England, who currently travel from North East Wales.

Your interpretation is correct - the 05:14 is a DMU and the loco hauled stock leaves Chester at 07:40. They are two separate trains.

Are that many people losing out on the Llandudno branch or at Abergele or Shotton? Ultimately I guess that there's a balance to be struck and if numbers commuting from there aren't that high then is it such a big issue?

Btw your quotemarks got a bit mixed up again Bob!!

 

[merlodlliw]

Doe anyone know if this mythical Abergele-Manchester commuter exists?

Following publicity about the axing of the 0634 Llandudno/Manchester,then
the stopping pattern of the December 0514 from Holyhead to Manchester in place of Birmingham direct.

Darren Millar AM and David Jones MP both have Abergele in their Constituency of
Clwyd West, two constituents, one travelling to Warrington,one to Manchester for work have so far complained they will have to motor to Rhyl to catch the direct earlier Manchester train,A fair amount from North Wales commute, to Chester/Warrington and Manchester for work.
Abergele area in Summer also has thousands on holiday,not wanting to catch an early train I would agree.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Your interpretation is correct - the 05:14 is a DMU and the loco hauled stock leaves Chester at 07:40. They are two separate trains.

Yes I was just guessing based on the return Manchester-Holyhead timings.

On the question of a "franchise breach" it can hardly be that if the franchise manager (WG) requests the changes.
And the Cambrian improvements are bound to cost elsewhere if there is only the same stock available.
Arriva has gifted WG an extra train (the LHCS), and the other has to be cannibalised from somewhere.
It's not surprising there is a service reduction.
Also TOCs frequently switch times around the hour without infringing any franchise specs (on the Manchester-Llandudno for instance, it used to be xx16, now it's xx50).
There are bound to be "winners" and "losers".

 

[mikestone1952]

There must presumably be some mechanism for the DfT to specify service levels at stations in England?
I presume the two extra evening trains from Llandudno to the Junction are to meet the SLC, or whatever the current terminology is, on the branch.
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