New North Wales to Manchester train services

[ValleyLines142]

Are there enough three car sets to cover all the Manchester - South Wales diagrams as well as the couple of Holyhead - Cardiff diagrams currently booked as three car?

At the moment only two of the South Wales to Manchester diagrams are 2 car units. Everything else is 3 cars.

 

[Philip]

At the moment only two of the South Wales to Manchester diagrams are 2 car units. Everything else is 3 cars.

Which diagrams are booked for 2 coaches? I work at a station on the route and there are still a fair few 2-car 175s coming through, though I've noticed the 15:30 off Manchester has mainly been a 3-car set since December (used to be 2-car). Most of the Llandudno services are still worked by 3-car 175s too.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Which diagrams are booked for 2 coaches? I work at a station on the route and there are still a fair few 2-car 175s coming through, though I've noticed the 15:30 off Manchester has mainly been a 3-car set since December (used to be 2-car). Most of the Llandudno services are still worked by 3-car 175s too.

There's 4 sorry, although even 2 of these have seen 3 cars lately:

Diagram 1:
1W48 0503 Carmarthen to Manchester
1V39 1030 Manchester to Milford Haven
1B64 1708 Milford Haven to Cardiff

Diagram 2:
1W10 0615 Carmarthen to Manchester
1V40 1130 Manchester to Carmarthen
1W74 1658 Carmarthen to Manchester
(Although even this has been a 3 car of late)

Diagram 3:
1W05 0627 Crewe to Manchester
1V35 0730 Manchester to Carmarthen
1W64 1302 Carmarthen to Manchester
1V62 1830 Manchester to Carmarthen
(Again though this has been a 3-car of late)

Diagram 4:
1V33 0630 Manchester to Milford Haven
1W66 1308 Milford Haven to Manchester
1V64 1930 Manchester to Carmarthen

* Note that these diagrams are BOOKED for 2 car 175s; what actually turns up on the day is a different matter (you could get a 150 or a 153!)

 

[merlodlliw]

There's 4 sorry, although even 2 of these have seen 3 cars lately:

Thanks for the info Dan, I can see why ATW want the 0634 Llandudno to Manchester 3 car 175 on the South Wales run from December 2014.I wonder if they transfer anymore?

 

[Philip]

On the face of it those diagrams look fairly suitable to remain as 2-car sets, I haven't had much on-train experience, just basing this on the relative off peak times they serve Cardiff and Manchester. Maybe the 18:30 off Manchester would be better as a 3-car and the 06:15 from Carmarthen too.

Here is the proposed LHCS diagram, take off www.nwrail.org.uk

1D51.07:16 Crewe - Chester
1H84 07:40 Chester - Manchester Piccadilly
1D34 09:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Holyhead
1H89 12:59 Holyhead - Manchester Piccadilly
1D31 16:50 Manchester Piccadilly - Llandudno.
2D79 19:13 Llandudno - Llandudno Junction
2D80 19:28 Llandudno Junction - Llandudno
1K96 19:38 Llandudno - Crewe

Guessing the 17:19 Piccadilly to Chester will become two 175/0s to form a 4-car set, with the 15:50 Llandudno and 17:50 Holyhead remaining as 3-car 175.

 

[merlodlliw]

On the face of it those diagrams look fairly suitable to remain as 2-car sets, I haven't had much on-train experience, just basing this on the relative off peak times they serve Cardiff and Manchester. Maybe the 18:30 off Manchester would be better as a 3-car and the 06:15 from Carmarthen too.



Guessing the 17:19 Piccadilly to Chester will become two 175/0s to form a 4-car set, with the 15:50 Llandudno and 17:50 Holyhead remaining as 3-car 175.

The 1719 ex Piccadilly is very busy,your comment 2X175 two car,would require two guards? I presume its a three car 175 or similar now. I would not be surprised to see the loco hauled timetable change in the future,perhaps May 2015.
I am reliably informed the loco Hauled will be using Shrewsbury Guards until others are trained up in LHCS, as Salop guards are already LHCS trained,this may be one of the reasons why the service runs 0740 from Chester and not Llandudno,I am now wondering,Holyhead must have LHCS trained guards for Gerald?

 

[Philip]

The 1719 ex Piccadilly is very busy,your comment 2X175 two car,would require two guards? I presume its a three car 175 or similar now. I would not be surprised to see the loco hauled timetable change in the future,perhaps May 2015.
I am reliably informed the loco Hauled will be using Shrewsbury Guards until others are trained up in LHCS, as Salop guards are already LHCS trained,this may be one of the reasons why the service runs 0740 from Chester and not Llandudno,I am now wondering,Holyhead must have LHCS trained guards for Gerald?

Either two guards or loss of revenue/safety assurance in one portion. However it seems the only way not to reduce capacity on at least one of the peak services if it's true there are going to be more 3-car Cardiff diagrams.

 

[merlodlliw]

Either two guards or loss of revenue/safety assurance in one portion. However it seems the only way not to reduce capacity on at least one of the peak services if it's true there are going to be more 3-car Cardiff diagrams.

With the 1719 out of Piccadilly being standing only after leaving Oxford Rd,this would be one service ATW dare not reduce capacity,colleagues who commute from Manchester to North East Wales often speak of overcrowding.

I have PMd you about the ATW transfer aspiration of three car 175s from North Wales onto the Manchester/Marches run. I can not put the minutes up on an open website.

 

[Welshman]

I am reliably informed the loco Hauled will be using Shrewsbury Guards until others are trained up in LHCS, as Salop guards are already LHCS trained,this may be one of the reasons why the service runs 0740 from Chester and not Llandudno,I am now wondering,Holyhead must have LHCS trained guards for Gerald?

Seems like a bit of a lame excuse from ATW for not starting the 0740 back from Llandudno.
As you say, they must surely already have guards in North Wales who are LHCS-trained - otherwise how does "Gerald" operate?

And even if they haven't, its still 4 months before the new service starts. How long do they need?

 

[David Goddard]

An interesting observation at Crewe yesterday was the arrival of the Gerald set on an additional 0946 Holyhead to Crewe, which then returned at 1440.
Interesting to note given the comments elsewhere in this thread about the stock not being permitted for use elsewhere in the franchise.
I asked the driver about it and he said it was an additional Saturday trip every week through the middle of the summer (started last Saturday).

1K52 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V29392/2014/08/02/advanced
1D74: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V29391/2014/08/02/advanced

Of note was 150283 on 1Z52 Cardiff to Manchester (seen at Crewe just before 1200) and returned on 1V52 to Milford Haven. It rolled into Crewe full, and left absolutely rammed.

 

[PHILIPE]

An interesting observation at Crewe yesterday was the arrival of the Gerald set on an additional 0946 Holyhead to Crewe, which then returned at 1440.
Interesting to note given the comments elsewhere in this thread about the stock not being permitted for use elsewhere in the franchise.
I asked the driver about it and he said it was an additional Saturday trip every week through the middle of the summer (started last Saturday).

1K52 http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V29392/2014/08/02/advanced
1D74: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/V29391/2014/08/02/advanced

Of note was 150283 on 1Z52 Cardiff to Manchester (seen at Crewe just before 1200) and returned on 1V52 to Milford Haven. It rolled into Crewe full, and left absolutely rammed.

The additionals have already been mentioned on the ATW Gerald thread. They are not franchised trains so OK to work. Re 150282, a number of units had to be scrambled at Cardiff to re-start trains ex West Wales due to signalling problems.

 

[krus_aragon]

The additionals have already been mentioned on the ATW Gerald thread. They are not franchised trains so OK to work. Re 150282, a number of units had to be scrambled at Cardiff to re-start trains ex West Wales due to signalling problems.

Heavy irony there. Signalling work was planned between Cardiff and Bridgend for Saturday some months ago but subsequently cancelled (because FGW were already going around one diversion?). Guess where the signal failure was?

 

[ValleyLines142]

On the face of it those diagrams look fairly suitable to remain as 2-car sets, I haven't had much on-train experience, just basing this on the relative off peak times they serve Cardiff and Manchester. Maybe the 18:30 off Manchester would be better as a 3-car and the 06:15 from Carmarthen too.

Personally the 0503 Carmarthen to Manchester is fairly busy upon departure from Cardiff (0650). There's some cheap Advances for that train and on one occasion I caught it almost every seat was reserved!! Bearing in mind it gets to Shrewsbury for 0845ish and Crewe for 0925ish.

On the subject of 175s, last night's 1B92 2015 Cardiff to Milford Haven was formed of 175011 and 175106!

 

[PHILIPE]

With Long Distance trains such as West Wales to Manchester they can be quiet at one end and busy at the other and vice versa depending on the time of day. Cross Country is similar.

 

[ValleyLines142]

With Long Distance trains such as West Wales to Manchester they can be quiet at one end and busy at the other and vice versa depending on the time of day. Cross Country is similar.

Indeed so. Take the 1630 Manchester to Milford Haven for example. Upon departure from Manchester, it's probably quite busy at the time of the day. Then on departure from Crewe (1708) it's probably rammed, with people changing off the West Coast Main Line! Then the same service finally rolls into Milford Haven at 2247, where it'll probably have no more than a dozen people on board; can you believe that that is the same train?!

 

[Welshman]

Indeed so. Take the 1630 Manchester to Milford Haven for example. Upon departure from Manchester, it's probably quite busy at the time of the day. Then on departure from Crewe (1708) it's probably rammed, with people changing off the West Coast Main Line! Then the same service finally rolls into Milford Haven at 2247, where it'll probably have no more than a dozen people on board; can you believe that that is the same train?!

Which raises an interesting question as to how many passengers make the through journey from Manchester and the Marches to West Wales, and thus how many would be inconvenienced if the service were to be split at Cardiff, with good connections to/from the west?

Then the 175.1s could be concentrated on a Manchester-Cardiff "shuttle" - the core part of the route which seems to see most demand.

It does seem ludicrous that 3-car units are lightly loaded at Milford Haven, while 2-car units are crammed between Crewe and Cardiff!

 

[PHILIPE]

They used to be split until about 2005 but were deliberately made through trains to avoid problematical shunt moves around Cardiff Central/Canton which were adding to congestion. An additional unit would be required to start a fresh train from Cardiff, but if so, any split in regard to capacity would be preferable at Swansea as the section between Swansea and Cardiff can be very busy, especially at peak times. If, as has been mentioned on the thread already, they all became 3 Cars then problem solved.

 

[Philip]

They used to be split until about 2005 but were deliberately made through trains to avoid problematical shunt moves around Cardiff Central/Canton which were adding to congestion. An additional unit would be required to start a fresh train from Cardiff, but if so, any split in regard to capacity would be preferable at Swansea as the section between Swansea and Cardiff can be very busy, especially at peak times. If, as has been mentioned on the thread already, they all became 3 Cars then problem solved.

At least one Manchester to West Wales diagram would need to remain a 2 car working because it finishes the day at Carmarthen and this unit would be then required to work the 09:20 Cardiff to Holyhead (currently booked as a 2 car working off Carmarthen) the next day. There are two other Holyhead - Cardiff diagrams booked to have a 3 car 175, plus the early morning Cardiff to Llandudno which then works North Wales - Manchester services during the day, this too is booked as a 3 car. There are not enough 3 car 175s to cover all Manchester - West Wales diagrams and then cover some Holyhead - Cardiffs too. I suspect we'll see two of the four diagrams currently booked as a 2-car go to 3 car 175 operation on Manchester - South Wales.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Which raises an interesting question as to how many passengers make the through journey from Manchester and the Marches to West Wales, and thus how many would be inconvenienced if the service were to be split at Cardiff, with good connections to/from the west?

Then the 175.1s could be concentrated on a Manchester-Cardiff "shuttle" - the core part of the route which seems to see most demand.

It does seem ludicrous that 3-car units are lightly loaded at Milford Haven, while 2-car units are crammed between Crewe and Cardiff!

I don't think many people do the journey right through, I think it exists purely as it could be more viable to run it as a through service, a bit like the Aberdeen to Penzance.

I once had a lady sat opposite me on one journey who was going from Stockport to Bridgend, so there are some.

I honestly don't know whether splitting the service would make any difference to be honest. The 1730 off Manchester is split at Cardiff, with another unit forming the departure from there to Milford Haven. What the point of this was I do not know!

 

[PHILIPE]

I don't think many people do the journey right through, I think it exists purely as it could be more viable to run it as a through service, a bit like the Aberdeen to Penzance.

I once had a lady sat opposite me on one journey who was going from Stockport to Bridgend, so there are some.

I honestly don't know whether splitting the service would make any difference to be honest. The 1730 off Manchester is split at Cardiff, with another unit forming the departure from there to Milford Haven. What the point of this was I do not know!

Freshly fuelled unit at Carmarthen for work required to do before next at a Depot

 

[ValleyLines142]

Freshly fuelled unit at Carmarthen for work required to do before next at a Depot

I'm guessing that the unit on that service then stables overnight at Carmarthen to then work either the 0503 to Manchester, the 0550 to Cardiff or the 0615 to Manchester?

How come the 1830 or the 1930 isn't split?

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm guessing that the unit on that service then stables overnight at Carmarthen to then work either the 0503 to Manchester, the 0550 to Cardiff or the 0615 to Manchester?

How come the 1830 or the 1930 isn't split?

Because they have the fuel capacity to complete the next days work by finishing at a fuelling point. A fresh one would be needed to cover a diagram which starts and finishes at Carmarthen the next day and would not be able to be fuelled until the end of the following day

 

[Gareth Marston]

Service will split when wires are up to Swansea anyway. 175's will not go west of of Canton and Landore will get ex FGW 158's to work west wales services.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Service will split when wires are up to Swansea anyway. 175's will not go west of of Canton and Landore will get ex FGW 158's to work west wales services.

So where will the 175s go and what will replace FGW's 158s?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So where will the 175s go and what will replace FGW's 158s?

I think we are guessing here but there ought to be an EMU solution for Bath-Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea (319s?).
FGW will also be cascading 16x westwards from the Thames Valley to Bristol so that will also free up some 15x.
175s ought to go to Manchester-Cardiff and North Wales to Manchester/Birmingham/Cardiff.
But they have to sort out the Valleys wiring first...

 

[merlodlliw]

I think we are guessing here but there ought to be an EMU solution for Bath-Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea (319s?).
FGW will also be cascading 16x westwards from the Thames Valley to Bristol so that will also free up some 15x.
175s ought to go to Manchester-Cardiff and North Wales to Manchester/Birmingham/Cardiff.
But they have to sort out the Valleys wiring first...

The Metro was the lead story on BBC Wales today at 0730,there is now some talk of a tram system plus the never ending row of who pays,Cardiff or Westminster.
Back to the Loco hauled service, David Jones, MP for Clwyd West(Colwyn Bay) ex Sec Of State for Wales has written to ATW & WG about the axing of the early morning 0634 Llandudno/Manchester direct service and what is the proposed alternative from North Wales.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think we are guessing here but there ought to be an EMU solution for Bath-Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea (319s?).
FGW will also be cascading 16x westwards from the Thames Valley to Bristol so that will also free up some 15x.
175s ought to go to Manchester-Cardiff and North Wales to Manchester/Birmingham/Cardiff.
But they have to sort out the Valleys wiring first...

Cardiff to Cheltenham and Cardiff to Abergavenney stopping service will have to be resourced from displaced 175's from west of Cardiff as well.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Cardiff to Cheltenham and Cardiff to Abergavenney stopping service will have to be resourced from displaced 175's from west of Cardiff as well.

Only if they can be serviced from Chester depot, which is the overall fleet constraint.

 

[berneyarms]

Only if they can be serviced from Chester depot, which is the overall fleet constraint.

Well presumably the rosters will be interworked with Manchester-Cardiff services - that's not that difficult to do - just swap sets around every other day.

 

[frodshamfella]

Judging by my most recent experiences of Rhyl, Liverpool is already adequately connected to the North Wales coast.

There are plans of a Hovercraft link Rhyl to Liverpool and Airport I read.