New Network Rail Electrification Train

[Whistler40145]

Will Network Rail's new state of the art Electrification train be ready for some of the projects in the North West?

Also, will it speed up the completion of some lines?


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[driver9000]

I believe it is to make its debut on the NW wiring projects. From what I've heard it is meant to be a rolling electrification factory and has been referred to as HOOP (High output overhead plant).

 

[Whistler40145]

Thanks driver9000, so let's hope it will speed things up & maybe the project could be completed in a shorter timescale.


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[swt_passenger]

Will Network Rail's new state of the art Electrification train be ready for some of the projects in the North West?

Also, will it speed up the completion of some lines?

According to NR's press release the planned date for the delivery of the HOOP, and introduction on the GWML is autumn 2013, and the GW scheme dates already assume use of the HOOP, it was always intended to be ordered as required for GW work starting.

That suggests that the HOOP will not be available for the 'NW triangle', because the first phase there is being done now for completion in autumn 2013, and I think this has always been planned on the basis of existing plant being used.

 

[Whistler40145]

So that means the northwest project will take longer to complete.


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[driver9000]

I have heard HOOP mentioned in regard to NW wiring. The first phase over Chat Moss may not see HOOP but Blackpool and the Euxton-Manchester could and I'm sure it was these that were mentioned.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So that means the northwest project will take longer to complete.

Longer in what respect? The timescales given will be based on the proposed method of installation be it HOOP or otherwise.

 

[Whistler40145]

Sorry, I was meaning that older methods would take longer than HOOP.


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[Tin Rocket]

What happened to the Windhoff wiring and piling trains that worked the west coast route mods?and what staff will be working train and new works in the NW?

 

[ole man]

Network Rail OCR have 1 wiring train that is stabled at Crewe IEMD, they use for new wire runs up and the country and on occasions such as major rip downs.
The new wiring train Network Rail are ordering will be for the GWML.
Heard that the other wiring train is in Chile, and will probably me making a return to the UK.

The wiring train can do a entire wire run (1400-1700m) maybe longer in some places in a single shift. where as now it would take a weekend, as most companies use giga railers with the wire on a drum and use endless MEWPS to connect the wire.
Though SRS have a machine that rolls wire out a the tension required, it is always fully booked up with various companies

 

[swt_passenger]

As the previous post implies, and as per the press release, NR have seemingly ordered only one HOOP system. As the idea is to use it in 8 hour overnight posssesions on the GWML, I don't see when it is ever going to be available for use in the NW.

The two jobs are going on in parallel from 2013 onwards aren't they, not one after the other - so I don't really see this single train shuttling back and forth between two major projects...

 

[Nym]

They could do to buy another one, or possibly take 8hr daytime possessions some of the valley lines or Thames valley lines in turn, wiring these when the HOOP train will otherwise not be in use, and is in the right area of the country. It's an expensive asset, make it earn it's keep, and it would have some sensible branches wired that wouldn't hurt too much to have daytime possessions.

You could proberbly move between the GWML and Cardiff Valleys or Thames Valley Lines in a day, or maybe even being adventurous and doing parts of the Kemble Link during the day? Diverting the long way round.

But provided the manpower can be sourced, why not have the HOOP train running 16hrs/day, 8hr night possession, 8hrs in the day on branches, and 2hrs between sites each way. For being controversial, would the people of Swansea sacrifice daytime services for a few months to get electrification?

 

[HSTEd]

But provided the manpower can be sourced, why not have the HOOP train running 16hrs/day, 8hr night possession, 8hrs in the day on branches, and 2hrs between sites each way. For being controversial, would the people of Swansea sacrifice daytime services for a few months to get electrification?

Wouldn't even be all of the services, as I imagine you might be able to run a limited timetable using single line working at low speed on the other line.
Especially if you could somehow couple two HSTs up (what happened to the power cars with the buffer and chain couplers?) for the bottleneck.

 

[Nym]

Wouldn't even be all of the services, as I imagine you might be able to run a limited timetable using single line working at low speed on the other line.
Especially if you could somehow couple two HSTs up (what happened to the power cars with the buffer and chain couplers?) for the bottleneck.

If we're going for that tactic, just use insanely long LHCS or 158s running a Swansea - Cardiff Shuttle. 14 or 16 car 158 has more seating than an equivalent length HST, but yeah, you could just run services via a single line working and have a possession part way or all way for one of these.

If there is somewhere you could cross services over say 1/3 and 2/3 of the way down the line and use manned token authorisation, you could maintain 1tph each way, and just make these services insanely long, and shuttles ONLY between Cardiff and Swansea, can't afford delays from other routes. (Only working on 1/6th of the line at once)

Thames Valley Lines naturally can just have buses or 'use alternative routes' instead.

 

[ainsworth74]

Especially if you could somehow couple two HSTs up (what happened to the power cars with the buffer and chain couplers?) for the bottleneck.

They do have emergency couplers under the front but I think there is a very restrictive speed limit when it's being used as for the buffer fitted HSTs they're in service with GC.

 

[Whistler40145]

IMHO, if trains are allowed to run through a blockade then surely this will lengthen the time that the job would take to complete.

I think all electrification projects should have substitute Buses or divert train services via alternative routes where a shuttle Bus service could be provided from another station.


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[driver9000]

14 or 16 car 158 has more seating than an equivalent length HST, but yeah, you could just run services via a single line working and have a possession part way or all way for one of these.

12 car maximum for 158 formations. Apologies for being picky, I'll go now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Especially if you could somehow couple two HSTs up (what happened to the power cars with the buffer and chain couplers?) for the bottleneck.

HSTs cannot be run in multiple with each other, the emergency draw bar isn't intended to be used for lashing up long rakes (however fun that might be to see )

Single line working may be a viable method of working but for some of the works a total blockade may be necessary.

 

[Ploughman]

They could do to buy another one, or possibly take 8hr daytime possessions some of the valley lines or Thames valley lines in turn, wiring these when the HOOP train will otherwise not be in use, and is in the right area of the country. It's an expensive asset, make it earn it's keep, and it would have some sensible branches wired that wouldn't hurt too much to have daytime possessions.

You could proberbly move between the GWML and Cardiff Valleys or Thames Valley Lines in a day, or maybe even being adventurous and doing parts of the Kemble Link during the day? Diverting the long way round.

But provided the manpower can be sourced, why not have the HOOP train running 16hrs/day, 8hr night possession, 8hrs in the day on branches, and 2hrs between sites each way. For being controversial, would the people of Swansea sacrifice daytime services for a few months to get electrification?

When would you propose to include servicing and reloading with materials?

 

[Nym]

In the four hours between each run...

 

[Bald Rick]

But provided the manpower can be sourced, why not have the HOOP train running 16hrs/day, 8hr night possession, 8hrs in the day on branches, and 2hrs between sites each way. For being controversial, would the people of Swansea sacrifice daytime services for a few months to get electrification?

Err, when would the train be restocked with the hundreds of tonnes of piles, masts, small part steel work and drums of copper?

 

[Nym]

See above, or have loaded wagons ready at each site...

 

[swt_passenger]

IMHO, if trains are allowed to run through a blockade then surely this will lengthen the time that the job would take to complete.

But the whole point of the factory train is to allow trains to run on the adjacent lines while it is working - this is clear from NR's descriptions of the procedure, as found in their electrification RUS:

The factory concept has been developed to
the point where there is confidence that high
output electrification work can be delivered
within midweek night possessions (equivalent
of one tension length per six-hour productive
shift) and with the adjacent line open, so
minimising disruption.


The factory train requires restocking at the
end of each shift and so will return to its main
depot to be reloaded with materials ready for
the next shift. As far as possible equipment is
preconfigured at the depot and loaded on to
the train ready to expedite installation on site.
In cases where it is impractical for the train to
return to the main depot at the end of each
shift, satellite depots will be used.

The bit about restocking at the main depot is relevant to Nym's idea of working all over the place - it isn't going to carry an infinite amount of gear on board after all...

 

[OxtedL]

If you were absolutely determined to run two shifts a day, you would have at least two sets of wagons (or whatever you want to call them here, presumably much much cheaper than the expensive equipment used to do the wiring itself) and rotate them at the end of a shift. It might require a lot of shunting and stuff but allowing 9 hours for what might be a particularly bad shift as indicated at the moment, you still have 3 hours between shifts which is more than enough with a bit of creative thinking. There are plenty of locations around the place where this might be plausible away from electrification depots if it has to come to it. It would probably be a lot of hassle, but with high enough demand for electrification it could be done.

If off peak services down here are anything to go by, there are at least 4 hours in the middle of any weekday where trains are very lightly loaded, so this might be particularly practical during the Summer Holidays, for example. Or maybe if you were doing the valleys, Monday could be No Daytime Trains to Rhymney Day, Tuesday could be etc.

All of this is probably too difficult to implement sensibly in the reality which Network Rail will plan for, I suppose.

 

[HSTEd]

As a matter of general interest, could it be arranged for the train to carry taller support posts and longer cantilevers to enable a line to be built to be maintained at a larger loading gauge without a massive redesign of the train?

 

[WatcherZero]

You would have to extend the arm of the crane that lifts them and lengthen the trailers which carry them.

 

[IanXC]

As a matter of general interest, could it be arranged for the train to carry taller support posts and longer cantilevers to enable a line to be built to be maintained at a larger loading gauge without a massive redesign of the train?

Surely the equipment being installed will be compliant with the larger freight loading gauges anyway? Seeing as all bridges are built for this plus OHLE it would seem crazy to build something that might need rebuilding before too long anyway.

 

[Ploughman]

Having been involved in the planning of a reasonably high output steel sleeper relay operation in a blockade over 9 days repeated for a number of years.
Using 2 Jarvis Slinger trains alternating daily relaying over 80 lengths a day. (limited by scrap track train capacity) They worked continuously cycling between site on the Hull Seamer line and Doncaster.
In my opinion It would not be possible to reload sufficient stock onto the Electrification train within 4 hours to last a 16 hour shift.

 

[Rhydgaled]

According to NR's press release the planned date for the delivery of the HOOP, and introduction on the GWML is autumn 2013, and the GW scheme dates already assume use of the HOOP, it was always intended to be ordered as required for GW work starting.

That suggests that the HOOP will not be available for the 'NW triangle', because the first phase there is being done now for completion in autumn 2013, and I think this has always been planned on the basis of existing plant being used.

If the High Output electrification train is working on the NW triangle, it is amazingly slow. From the dates I found on the internet it seems that project will progress, at most, by 25 route miles per year.

The HOOP train will apparently be capable of installing 1.5km (0.9 miles) of electrification in an eight-hour shift. Given 250 working days a year (5 days a week for 50 weeks of the year) and an 8-hour shift on each of those days this team should in theroy be able to electrify 225 miles a year. To be on the safe side, I've based by estimates of how much we can electrify by 2020 on the HOOP train doing 150 route miles per year rather than 225.

For being controversial, would the people of Swansea sacrifice daytime services for a few months to get electrification?

If you only did the Bridgend - Briton Ferry section on Sundays (when the reduced frequencies might allow bustitution) then it might work, since you can divert over the Vale Of Glamorgan line between Cardiff and Bridgend (and you might be able to use single-line working on the main line too, so you effectivly have a 3-track railway on that section) and go via the Swansea District Line and Llanelli to reach Swansea from Briton Ferry.

 

[DarloRich]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darlo2009/6597099547/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/darlo2009/6597097255/

that might give you a clue where the Whindoff stuff is

 

[The Planner]

Not a chance of turning a train like that around in 4 hours. It is going to have a "home" during these works which it will need to get back to and from the work site. The HOBC and TSR4 need 8 hours minimum between shifts.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Not a chance of turning a train like that around in 4 hours. It is going to have a "home" during these works which it will need to get back to and from the work site. The HOBC and TSR4 need 8 hours minimum between shifts.

Ok, so no 16-hour days. My figures above didn't consider being able to run two shifts though, so let's see how much wiring can actually be achived if we are going to make the most of the electrification train.

Going with the two electrification teams I listed above (a High Output train for GWML and a much slower system in the north West), and assuming both teams start Jan 2013 and anything after Dec 2019 is too late for replacing IC125s and Pacers without granting temporary Equality Act / DDA exemptions there is 7 years of wiring.

The GWML team, at 150 miles per year, can electrify 1,050 route miles of railway in those 7 years. The slower NW team, 25 miles a year, could do 175 miles in that time. I've read on here that Network Rail are looking at buying a second Hugh Output train for the TPE north project. Assuming that also gets going in 2013, that would be another 1,050 miles of electrification by the end of 2019.

Personally, I think there should also be a third rail electrification team to rid Southern of diesels and free up most of SWT's Sprinters. As a wild guess that'd manage 25 miles per year like the NW team.

So, which 2,275 miles of railway (plus perhaps 175 miles of 3rd rail) would you like electrified? What's the total present mileage of electrified lines and other lines?

P.S. Does anyone know what electrification plant was used for the new rail line (Bathgate being one end) in Scotland, and is/will be being used on Edinbrough - Glasgow electrification (and what the timescale for said project, and TPE for that matter, is)? Maybe the Scotish OHLE team could be used to increase the 2,275 mile total even higher by wiring to, say, Aberdeen?