New mandatory ticket area sign at Birmingham Snow Hill

[trainJam]

Recently I used the Livery St gateline at Snow Hill and noticed some portable signs saying that the station is a "mandatory ticketing area". (picture attached)

Do these signs actually mean anything?
Either you have a ticket and can use the gates/CCTV in place of person column or you don't.
Is BSW a 'Compulsory Ticket Area' now?

The PF poster is too small to make on the picture and I didn't think to look at it when I was there.

 

[MrJeeves]

Is BSW a 'Compulsory Ticket Area' now?

No, because the signage doesn't meet the CTA criteria.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[800002]

Does passing through an open gate line equate to travelling without a ticket / not being in possession of a valid ticket?
Or would there need to be proof of an intent to travel after passing through the open gate line?


I find that poster board a pretty obvious attempt to dissuade people from entering and forming the basis (if it were actually carried out by someone wishing to overlook the mandatory requirements for doing their job) of enforcement action.
(Other opinions may vary).

 

[AlterEgo]

Does passing through an open gate line equate to travelling without a ticket / not being in possession of a valid ticket?
Or would there need to be proof of an intent to travel after passing through the open gate line?


I find that poster board a pretty obvious attempt to dissuade people from entering and forming the basis (if it were actually carried out by someone wishing to overlook the mandatory requirements for doing their job) of enforcement action.
(Other opinions may vary).

It isn't a compulsory ticket area, all it is is a sign to warn telling a white lie that people have to have a ticket.

It would not be an offence to be beyond the gateline without a valid ticket.

 

[tumbledown]

Next time I threaten somebody, I shall excuse myself by saying it was a "white lie".

 

[Kite159]

If it makes someone think twice about walking through an open gateline without having a ticket, then it's effective. Similar to some of the Northern stations which had signs saying something similar, even if totally unenforceable.

 

[Birmingham]

If it makes someone think twice about walking through an open gateline without having a ticket, then it's effective. Similar to some of the Northern stations which had signs saying something similar, even if totally unenforceable.

So we can just lie now?

 

[MrJeeves]

So we can just lie now?

I'm sure someone can create a creative interpretation of the wording.

Maybe they meant it's a "mandatory ticketing area" in the sense that West Midlands Trains must provide facilities to buy tickets at the station!

 

[mmh]

"Polite notice" is invariably a euphemism for we'd like this to be the case, it isn't but you might misread it as "police notice". Very poor.

 

[SargeNpton]

Does it just reinforce the message on the posters on the wall behind it? I assume that they meet the regulations.

 

[AlterEgo]

Does it just reinforce the message on the posters on the wall behind it? I assume that they meet the regulations.

No, because Birmingham Snow Hill is not a Compulsory Ticket Area. It is legal to be beyond the gateline without a ticket.

 

[MrJeeves]

I assume that they meet the regulations.

The penalty fare poster wording issue remains on every poster I've seen nationwide.

I understand the industry knows it is wrong, but there is no desire to reprint them all to fix it.

Penalty fare notice text.

It’s often noted the in disputes section discussions that the wording on the vast majority of penalty fare notices is not quite the same as the regulations require. The section “may have to pay…” vs “may be charged…” But is there any evidence of a PF being cancelled on the basis of the text...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[rmHawk765]

No, because the signage doesn't meet the CTA criteria.

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Does this mean TfL's signage at certain Overground stations is unenforceable? I have yet to see one that has a large warning about the compulsory ticket area, though I have seen tiny signs and a red line to mark where the area begins (for ungated stations).

 

[Watershed]

Does this mean TfL's signage at certain Overground stations is unenforceable? I have yet to see one that has a large warning about the compulsory ticket area, though I have seen tiny signs and a red line to mark where the area begins (for ungated stations).

The requirements for TfL to issue Penalty Fares under the Greater London Authority Act are quite different to requirements which National Rail operators have for issuing Penalty Fares under the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations.

 

[sot]

"Polite notice" is invariably a euphemism for we'd like this to be the case, it isn't but you might misread it as "police notice". Very poor.

Have to love the POLITE NOTICE that comes with blue/black and white checker pattern nearby...

Such as those near school crossings etc.

 

[Kilopylae]

"Polite notice" is invariably a euphemism for we'd like this to be the case, it isn't but you might misread it as "police notice". Very poor.

I think assuming that they've used the word polite in the hope people will mistake it for the word police is a little far-fetched.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2026 ==

Have to love the POLITE NOTICE that comes with blue/black and white checker pattern nearby...

Such as those near school crossings etc.

Ok, this one might be an exception!

 

[sot]

I think assuming that they've used the word polite in the hope people will mistake it for the word police is a little far-fetched.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Sep 2026 ==


Ok, this one might be an exception!

Yes those made with the sole intention of imitating police in some way are always amusing.

 

[Ediswan]

Have to love the POLITE NOTICE that comes with blue/black and white checker pattern nearby...

Such as those near school crossings etc.

Is that sign obstructing a footway ?

 

[The exile]

I think assuming that they've used the word polite in the hope people will mistake it for the word police is a little far-fetched.

Can’t think of any other reason to do so - what’s more, it works - particularly so when they were a novelty.

 

[Merle Haggard]

No, because Birmingham Snow Hill is not a Compulsory Ticket Area. It is legal to be beyond the gateline without a ticket.

My bold.

Is it?

BR stations had small square enamel signs at all their ticket gates reading 'WARNING / is hereby given to Persons not to trespass on the railway".

Before charging offenders with trespass the BT police where I worked checked to make sure that the notice was on display, inferring it had some basis in law.

But I'm not a lawyer ...

 

[AlterEgo]

My bold.

Is it?

BR stations had small square enamel signs at all their ticket gates reading 'WARNING / is hereby given to Persons not to trespass on the railway".

Before charging offenders with trespass the BT police where I worked checked to make sure that the notice was on display, inferring it had some basis in law.

But I'm not a lawyer ...

It is perfectly legal to be behind the gateline without a ticket at Snow Hill, yes.

You can trespass in other ways and if other factors are present, but no, the mere act of being beyond a gateline without a ticket at a station which is not a Compulsory Ticket Area is neither trespass nor an offence in and of itself.

 

[fandroid]

As Trespass on the Railway is potentially a criminal matter, as opposed to the civil matter of "ordinary" trespass, is there statute or case law which defines what it actually means?

 

[Merle Haggard]

As Trespass on the Railway is potentially a criminal matter, as opposed to the civil matter of "ordinary" trespass, is there statute or case law which defines what it actually means?

Older railway trespass signs quoted " - railways Additional Powers Act, 1883". Possibly enlarged the definition of 'trespass', but I can't find the details.

I do wonder why BR went to the trouble and expense of putting up trespass warning signs at every ticket gate if they were meaningless.

 

[Watershed]

Older railway trespass signs quoted " - railways Additional Powers Act, 1883". Possibly enlarged the definition of 'trespass', but I can't find the details.

I do wonder why BR went to the trouble and expense of putting up trespass warning signs at every ticket gate if they were meaningless.

To prosecute for trespass, it was a requirement under one of the Acts (British Transport Commission Act?) that a "no trespassing" sign be posted at every public entrance to the railway.

 

[Merle Haggard]

To prosecute for trespass, it was a requirement under one of the Acts (British Transport Commission Act?) that a "no trespassing" sign be posted at every public entrance to the railway.

Thanks, that explains why, in my experience, the BTP physically checked that there was one of those enamel signs at the entrance to the platform when pursuing prosecution.

I wonder why the seemingly-doubtful signs regarding 'mandatory ticket area' are posted when a 'trespass' one would have the force of an Act. Unless someone forgot to transfer the powers of the BTC to Railtrack then Network Rail ...

 

[Watershed]

Thanks, that explains why, in my experience, the BTP physically checked that there was one of those enamel signs at the entrance to the platform when pursuing prosecution.

I wonder why the seemingly-doubtful signs regarding 'mandatory ticket area' are posted when a 'trespass' one would have the force of an Act. Unless someone forgot to transfer the powers of the BTC to Railtrack then Network Rail ...

Merely being present beyond the ticket barrier (without a ticket) doesn't automatically amount to trespass. Anyway, nowadays the Byelaws create separate offences of passing through a barrier otherwise than in the intended manner, boarding a train without a valid ticket and trespassing. None of these require any signage to be in place.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I strongly suspect that what we're seeing is a bit of local initiative, produced by someone with access to a poster printer and with some awareness of the existence of Compulsory Ticket Areas. Because they know about CTAs, they have carefully avoided that precise wording - but otherwise they've gone ahead, in the hope that some people will be discouraged from proceeding without a ticket.

And they may be right: it might work a bit.

 

[furlong]

Snow Hill was one of the 16 Compulsory Ticket Areas on the network as defined within the Penalty Fares regulations. It probably still would be considered such if they put up compliant signage. Perhaps this is where the idea for this misguided "polite" notice has come from!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Snow Hill was one of the 16 Compulsory Ticket Areas on the network as defined within the Penalty Fares regulations.

Now that I didn't know.

 

[furlong]

See for example the map in this old leaflet still downloadable from Chiltern's website

https://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/files/timetables/Chiltern%20Penalty%20Fares%20v2_0.pdf