New London Midland timetable

[All Line Rover]

The new London Midland timetable is available to view on NRE and, given the hype, is suitably impressive. Here are the fastest LM journey times to London compared with with the fastest VT journey times:

Crewe_______: LM 2h 27m - VT 1h 35m (LM involves change at Stafford)
Stoke_______: LM 2h 20m - VT 1h 30m
Stafford_____: LM 1h 54m - VT 1h 17m
Nuneaton____: LM 1h 14m - VT 1h 00m
Birmingham__: LM 1h 55m - VT - 1h 12m (LM involves change at Rugby)
Rugby______: LM 0h 56m - VT 0h 49m
Milton Keynes: LM 0h 35m - VT 0h 34m

Given the lack of a clock-face timetable (there are no 'fast' LM services in the evening peak from London), the service is unlikely to appeal to business travellers, but for those living in Nuneaton, Rugby and Milton Keynes especially this new timetable is excellent. With London Midland planning to improve the timetable again in 2014, and First proposing to slow down some ICWC by stopping them at more intermediate stations, London Midland is bound to look even more attractive in the coming years.

I'll be interested to see what happens to the 'LM Only' fares in January, including the availability of 'LM Only' Advance tickets.

 

[sonic2009]

I take it this means the Trent Valley stoppers are travelling via Weedon?

Could you please provide a link

 

[All Line Rover]

I take it this means the Trent Valley stoppers are travelling via Weedon?

Could you please provide a link

Yes, they stop at Rugby, Milton Keynes, then London.

Just enter a journey on NRE, select a date such as December 12th, and the new services will appear.

 

[DarloRich]

Have they intorduced a direct Bedford - Milton Keynes service i wonder? This was a proposal at the start of discussions on this timetable.

 

[sonic2009]

Good to see that the connections now from Birmingham at Tamworth for Atherstone are totally changed from Dec 12. ( Looks at myself and thinks more travelling time)

 

[Mike395]

Have they intorduced a direct Bedford - Milton Keynes service i wonder? This was a proposal at the start of discussions on this timetable.

Sadly not - however connections at Bletchley have improved - there is a much shorter wait required when changing at Bletchley between Marston Vale and the WCML in both directions.

 

[sonic2009]

It's good to see that London Midland have introduced a later service up the Trent Valley.

 

[bnsf734]

I've just had a look via the LM journey planner.

The most useful train for me travelling to London on a Saturday was the 08:02 ex Nuneaton. This will now depart at 08:26 (theres no LM train earlier) and sits at MKC for 10 minutes! - presumably awaiting a path into Euston. This gives an arrival time into Euston at 09:49 - virtually the same time as before.

Later trains leave Nuneaton at xx.35 and arrive Euston at xx.49

Last LM train London -Crewe still leaves Euston at 18:46

A disappointing improvement - the only gain is 20 extra minutes in bed (and some 110mph 350 thrash!)

 

[All Line Rover]

I've just had a look via the LM journey planner.

The most useful train for me travelling to London on a Saturday was the 08:02 ex Nuneaton. This will now depart at 08:26 (theres no LM train earlier) and sits at MKC for 10 minutes! - presumably awaiting a path into Euston. This gives an arrival time into Euston at 09:49 - virtually the same time as before.

Later trains leave Nuneaton at xx.35 and arrive Euston at xx.49

Last LM train London -Crewe still leaves Euston at 18:46

A disappointing improvement - the only gain is 20 extra minutes in bed (and some 110mph 350 thrash!)

I believe Saturdays will improve significantly in 2014. The current timetable is an incremental update.

 

[jaigee]

----- but for those living in Nuneaton, Rugby and Milton Keynes especially this new timetable is excellent.

Not if you are travelling northwards it's not!

For instance, after 9:16, Liverpool will now take 2 hours 15 minutes from Nuneaton, compared to 1 hour 53 minutes at present. Most journeys involving a change at Stafford will have extended times due to the longer wait for the connecting services. :-x

It may come as a shock, but some people do not actually travel to London and back.

 

[DarloRich]

Sadly not - however connections at Bletchley have improved - there is a much shorter wait required when changing at Bletchley between Marston Vale and the WCML in both directions.

is there a link? What date does the new timetbale start?

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It may come as a shock, but some people do not actually travel to London and back.

While that is true, it is also true that most people do want to travel to London so you build the timetable to cater to the majority. When you are trying to cast a railway timetable you will quickly find out it is impossible to please everybody, but I expect the feedback LM is getting from passengers is overwhelmingly popular at the moment.

 

[DarloRich]

Sadly not - however connections at Bletchley have improved - there is a much shorter wait required when changing at Bletchley between Marston Vale and the WCML in both directions.

the one thing that worries me is that they move the incoming Martson Vale train so that the north bound xx:18 off Bletchley north bound isnt a connection anymore.

 

[MK Tom]

This is great if you live in MK and regularly travel to Stafford. I think I'm the only person in that category though!!! It's also made MK - Leicester/Loughborough/Nottingham/Derby far more attractive and convenient against National Express services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

We seem to have arrived at a timetable where 3 fast trains do EUS-MKC within 6 minutes, which seems like overkill:
xx.43 WC (to Birmingham, 32min)
xx.46 LM (to Crewe, 32min)
xx.49 LM (to Birmingham, 36min, calls at WFJ)

This also presumes that LM has approval for 110mph running, which I hadn't seen confirmed anywhere.
Does anybody know what upgrades are necessary for this and whether the 350/1s will be ready in time?

 

[Greeby]

I'll be interested to see what happens to the 'LM Only' fares in January, including the availability of 'LM Only' Advance tickets.

I'd hope it would be the impetus for LM to take over the flows to/from the Trent Valley and have them be local flows (SD, CD, etc) rather than Intercity-style flows.

 

[jaigee]

While that is true, it is also true that most people do want to travel to London.

That's because it takes too long to get anywhere else!

IMHO the number of people awaiting the northbound trains from Nuneaton are at least equal to the southbound numbers. On Nuneaton ticket sales alone the southbound would indeed appear overwhelmingly more popular, but the majority of northbound people alight from the **.10 XC East Anglia services and are travelling onwards.

Incidentally, anyone travelling from East Anglia to the NW via Nuneaton will now have a 45 minute wait. It will be quicker to continue to Birmingham and change there. So at least I should have the Crewe train to myself!

Incidentally, a LM Birmingham-Liverpool and the Euston-Crewe will now arrive at Stafford within one minute of each other, but the speeded up Crewe train is scheduled a 4 minute wait! Should lead to some interesting pathing/platform decisions.

 

[The Planner]

Why ? the Liverpool uses 5 and Crewe uses 3 and is far enough behind it at Norton Bridge and turns right, no issue there at all.

 

[jaigee]

Why ? the Liverpool uses 5 and Crewe uses 3 and is far enough behind it at Norton Bridge and turns right, no issue there at all.

Sorry, perfectly correct, I was thinking 3 was the fast run through line, which of course it is not, and a standing train would have been a problem.

 

[embers25]

Last Northbound direct Crewe (though not via Stoke) service will be 2013 which is better and there is a 1724 as well now although as previously mentioned all peak trains are slow. Some of the waits for paths do seem quite long though but I suppose it still beats trundling around Northampton loop and waiting there as well whilst they split trains.

 

[MKB]

From my perspective, as a Nuneaton resident, the new LM timetable is horrendous. We've lost the quick connection on to Virgin's Euston services at Rugby, so getting to London now takes 2 minutes longer with no on-board service and you could find yourself with 5-across seating.

However, that's a minor irritation compared to the effect on northbound services. Take my regular weekday evening trips to Liverpool. I need to be in LIV by 19:30 and leave the following morning to be back in NUN by 09:00-ish.

The Northbound journey has increased from 1:59 to 2:21 (now routing via Birmingham), and needs me to depart by 16:55, which just isn't possible with my job. Southbound now requires me to go via Manchester with journey time increased from 1:58 to 2:29 and having to get up 47 minutes earlier!

All of which means I'll have no choice but to contend with the M6 come mid-December.

I'm told Northbound journey times from Nuneaton to other points like Manchester have also gone up by around 20 minutes.

It's as if there's a deliberate strategy to force those of us at intermediate WCML stations off rail and on to the roads.

 

[radamfi]

From my perspective, as a Nuneaton resident, the new LM timetable is horrendous. We've lost the quick connection on to Virgin's Euston services at Rugby, so getting to London now takes 2 minutes longer with no on-board service and you could find yourself with 5-across seating.

Unfortunately, many people on this forum don't seem to appreciate the Rugby connection. It has been one of the few occasions where the timetable has been carefully planned to enable good connections. I've been in many debates on here with people who are only interested in direct services and so much preferred it when the Liverpool - Euston Virgin service stopped at Nuneaton.

As an enthusiast, I am curious to see what Desiros are like at 110 mph and on the Milton Keynes to Rugby stretch, but there is little benefit from this new timetable other than not having to change at Rugby, and for those with 'LM Only' tickets who no longer have to go through Northampton.

 

[The Planner]

As an enthusiast, I am curious to see what Desiros are like at 110 mph and on the Milton Keynes to Rugby stretch

Hold on to your coffee....

 

[All Line Rover]

From my perspective, as a Nuneaton resident, the new LM timetable is horrendous. We've lost the quick connection on to Virgin's Euston services at Rugby, so getting to London now takes 2 minutes longer with no on-board service and you could find yourself with 5-across seating.

Given that London Midland charge £30 and Virgin charge £138 if you want to arrive in London after 10am and return during the evening peak, I'm not sure that is a valid criticism when the purpose of this new timetable is to make Virgin irrelevant. This is a subjective opinion but I suspect most customers would prefer waiting an extra two minutes instead of having to change at Rugby, especially when it saves them £108!

If you are desperate to travel with Virgin, you still have that option if you travel during the peaks. And once First take over, Nuneaton will see even more ICWC services.

The only concern I have for Nuneaton residents is being able to get a seat. It's not unusual for 4-car Desiros to be full once they reach Nuneaton. I hope London Midland either introduce seat reservations for actual seats, or double-up busy services to 8-car.

However, that's a minor irritation compared to the effect on northbound services. Take my regular weekday evening trips to Liverpool. I need to be in LIV by 19:30 and leave the following morning to be back in NUN by 09:00-ish.

The Northbound journey has increased from 1:59 to 2:21 (now routing via Birmingham), and needs me to depart by 16:55, which just isn't possible with my job. Southbound now requires me to go via Manchester with journey time increased from 1:58 to 2:29 and having to get up 47 minutes earlier!

The statistics published by LM a while back showed that the vast majority of traffic is London-centric. LM cater to the majority, so unfortunately some will lose out.

Your northbound journey is definitely a pain, but your southbound one has been sped up from 1h 58m to 1h 39m, the only difference being that the arrival time in Nuneaton has changed from 9:02 to 9:27. The option to travel via Manchester and arrive in Nuneaton at 8:44 is available in both timetables. I think it's rather harsh to expect that a new timetable with faster trains should have almost identical arrival times to the old one, given that it is impossible to accommodate such a request.

Even so, I agree that the new timetable has annoyingly lengthened most northbound journey times. As this timetable is only an incremental update, I hope that, come 2014, LM and First will have done sufficient collaboration to create good northbound connections for Trent Valley customers at Stafford or Crewe!

 

[MK Tom]

From my perspective, as a Nuneaton resident, the new LM timetable is horrendous. We've lost the quick connection on to Virgin's Euston services at Rugby, so getting to London now takes 2 minutes longer with no on-board service and you could find yourself with 5-across seating.

I thought only the 350/1s were being upgraded for 110mph running?

 

[All Line Rover]

I thought only the 350/1s were being upgraded for 110mph running?

This appears to be correct, so let's hope it's "good riddance" to 3+2 seating on Trent Valley services!

 

[Pumbaa]

My biggest gripe with this is that connections that were carefully planned first time round are now thrown out the window. Journeys that aren't on the direct service are now slower - the Liverpool connection at Stafford being a particularly dense omission.

Watch any Crewe service arrive at Stafford, and well over 75% will empty for the Liverpool service which arrives 12mins later currently. A 35min wait for the next Liverpool service effectively cancels out any time saving for anyone travelling north of Crewe.

I hope these connections are re-established in 2014.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
And comparing now, travelling from north of Crewe delivers a half-hour time saving as the connection onto the Trent Valley slots nicely into the other service on the half-hourly pattern on the Liverpool - Birmingham service.

The northwards services are offset by 5 mins though from New Street. If the xx01 service departed at xx06 to match the xx36, then the (admittedly unofficial) connection could be made! Looks like I'm going to spending a lot of time festering at Stafford then... Joyously a stations-south-of-MK-but-north-of-London now involve a half hour fester at MK due to no connection, and then another one at Stafford.

 

[MKB]

Given that London Midland charge £30 and Virgin charge £138 if you want to arrive in London after 10am and return during the evening peak, I'm not sure that is a valid criticism when the purpose of this new timetable is to make Virgin irrelevant. This is a subjective opinion but I suspect most customers would prefer waiting an extra two minutes instead of having to change at Rugby, especially when it saves them £108!

A better comparison would be the LM-only peak fares at £72 return versus £138 for any operator, and the LM-only off-peak and super off-peak at £21 and £31 respectively versus the £38 any operator.

In reality for leisure travel, because there is no LM return after 19:46, I usually have no choice but to get the £38 fare unless I can guarantee coming back early, which is rare. On the other hand for business travel, if I'm working for a London-based customer, they expect a full days' work out of me. I could not get away with arriving some time after 10:30. I don't think I'm unusual in this regard. I rather expect the market for arriving after 10am but having to return in the evening peak is not a typical one.

Your northbound journey is definitely a pain, but your southbound one has been sped up from 1h 58m to 1h 39m, the only difference being that the arrival time in Nuneaton has changed from 9:02 to 9:27. The option to travel via Manchester and arrive in Nuneaton at 8:44 is available in both timetables.

If you read my OP, you'll see the 1:39 journey does not fit within my constraint of needing to be back my 9-ish. (It gets me in too late to get to work by 9:30.) While the via MAN journey exists now, the point is it becomes my only option after the timetable change.

The only concern I have for Nuneaton residents...
The statistics published by LM a while back showed that the vast majority of traffic is London-centric. LM cater to the majority, so unfortunately some will lose out.

Of course, with such sentiments, you're merely echoing the transport policies of the DfT and the likes of Virgin, which is to concentrate on the end-to-end traffic at the expense of those travelling to/from/via an intermediate point. What is your reference for the LM stats as I find it hard to believe that more than 50% of LM's passengers are travelling to/from/via Euston?

 

[All Line Rover]

A better comparison would be the LM-only peak fares at £72 return versus £138 for any operator, and the LM-only off-peak and super off-peak at £21 and £31 respectively versus the £38 any operator.

Given that the £31 fare has no evening peak restrictions and allows one to arrive in London well before 12:14 (the earliest arrival time in the existing timetable if you want to travel on a "Route Direct" Off-Peak Return), I think it is a fair comparison. Even so, the £72 fare also offers a hefty saving on the £138 fare considering you have the convenience of a direct train and only lose two minutes.

On the other hand for business travel, if I'm working for a London-based customer, they expect a full days' work out of me. I could not get away with arriving some time after 10:30. I don't think I'm unusual in this regard. I rather expect the market for arriving after 10am but having to return in the evening peak is not a typical one.

In which case you would travel with Virgin, whose services still exist and will become more frequent within a few years.

If you read my OP, you'll see the 1:39 journey does not fit within my constraint of needing to be back my 9-ish. (It gets me in too late to get to work by 9:30.) While the via MAN journey exists now, the point is it becomes my only option after the timetable change.

If I were you I too would be annoyed, but I don't think London Midland are fussed about a 20 minute change in arrival time.

Of course, with such sentiments, you're merely echoing the transport policies of the DfT and the likes of Virgin, which is to concentrate on the end-to-end traffic at the expense of those travelling to/from/via an intermediate point. What is your reference for the LM stats as I find it hard to believe that more than 50% of LM's passengers are travelling to/from/via Euston?

If you look at the brochure I linked to in my previous post, there is this quote:

We have assessed the impact of the proposal using passenger journeys’ data in the Lennon
database:
• Passenger journeys between Northampton / Watford Junction and Trent
Valley stations (increase in journey time in the proposal) – 73,156 journeys
per annum, 1,407 journeys per week
• Passenger journeys between London Euston / Milton Keynes Central and
Rugby or Trent Valley stations (reduction in journey time in the proposal) –
685,000 journeys per annum, 13,173 journeys per week.

Whilst those statistics don't include journeys to/from north of the Trent Valley, when you take into account the station passenger usage figures also, it's clear that the majority of London Midland passengers travel to/from London.

 

[transmanche]

What is your reference for the LM stats as I find it hard to believe that more than 50% of LM's passengers are travelling to/from/via Euston?

I haven't seen any specific figures for London Midland - but nationally, in 2009/2010 59% of all rail journeys started or finished in London. (Source: DfT.) East Coast say that approx 60% of their passengers start or finish their journey at King’s Cross.

Being that some TOCs don't serve London at all, it's probably safe to surmise that 'more than 50%' is a reasonable guesstimate.