New Idea for Sutton Loop Services

[gsc777]

If there are any clarifications I shall make them when I read this after I sleep, haha.

Since the Sutton Loop Thameslink services are so unpopular, I have been thinking of ways to get rid of it in a nice way. Here are my proposals:

1. Overground: Services serving the whole loop are diverted via Clapham Junction onto the West London Line, with 2tph continuing on to Stratford via the NLL and 2tph continuing on to Watford Junction via the DC Line. If the ELL has capacity then even an extra 2tph around the loop from Highbury or Dalston could be useful, via Peckham Rye and East Dulwich, merging onto the line at Tulse Hill.
2. Thameslink: Service from London Blackfriars to Epsom Downs via Mitcham Junction, using the same route via Loughborough Junction
3. Southern: Service from London Victoria to Sutton via Brixton and Wimbledon, using the same route from Loughborough Junction. If the Victoria—Epsom Downs got replaced with the above, this service could morph into the Victoria—Sutton via Norbury, and vice versa.
4. To change things on the DC corridor, the Watford—EC service will be transferred to Overground. The Euston—Watford will be removed, replaced with a 1tph Euston—Watford direct, running fast from Willesden Junction. Increased Bakerloo Line capacity with the Lewisham opening can cover some of the loss this will incur. The current Watford—Euston will become the Watford—Sutton (around the loop), and the Stratford—CJ will extend to Stratford—Sutton (around the loop).

This will not only provide Sutton with a wider variety of destinations, but will connect Sutton onto the Tube Map properly as an accessible Overground location. Furthermore, connections to Crossrail 2 at Clapham and Wimbledon (and Dalston, potentially), as well as Elizabeth Line and HS2 connections at Old Oak Common would be fantastic. A connection onto the Victoria Line at Brixton, whilst not perfect, can supplement Victoria. It's not perfect, but it's what 4am brain thought, so let me know what might work! Also, with both Lioness and Mildmay Line services on the line, it will give the illusion of increased service, which might make these stations more attractive to travellers.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Since the Sutton Loop Thameslink services are so unpopular

They only seem to be unpopular on this forum; I use Thameslink to and from Sutton regularly and there are quite a lot of people changing off the loop at Sutton anticlockwise or onto the loop at Sutton clockwise; there's also a lot of people using it between the core at Sutton in both directions and between Wimbledon and the core in both directions. Quite a few people ride through at both Sutton and Wimbledon, but especially at the latter.

Overground: Services serving the whole loop are diverted via Clapham Junction onto the West London Line, with 2tph continuing on to Stratford via the NLL and 2tph continuing on to Watford Junction via the DC Line.

Could the West London Line cope with an additional 4 trains an hour each way? There's still quite a bit of freight using it. Plus... how would you access the DC line at Willesden Junction from the West London Line? That's without having to also cross the West Coast Main Line on the flat...

If the ELL has capacity then even an extra 2tph around the loop from Highbury or Dalston could be useful, via Peckham Rye and East Dulwich, merging onto the line at Tulse Hill.

I think the East London Line is already running at, or very close to, capacity?

Southern: Service from London Victoria to Sutton via Brixton and Wimbledon, using the same route from Loughborough Junction. If the Victoria—Epsom Downs got replaced with the above, this service could morph into the Victoria—Sutton via Norbury, and vice versa.

Seems to me to be a very long way round and doesn't really give any advantage overall as there are already reasonably good cross platform connections between the two routes at Herne Hill.

The Euston—Watford will be removed, replaced with a 1tph Euston—Watford direct, running fast from Willesden Junction.

Wouldn't this reduce by 75% the number of services at the stations between Euston at Queen's Park - which are all heavily used?

Increased Bakerloo Line capacity with the Lewisham opening can cover some of the loss this will incur. The current Watford—Euston will become the Watford—Sutton (around the loop), and the Stratford—CJ will extend to Stratford—Sutton (around the loop).

I'm not sure there would be enough capacity at Streatham Junction North and Streatham Junction South to path this increase in services across them, especially at the former. The below bit at least might fit through the latter.

• Thameslink: Service from London Blackfriars to Epsom Downs via Mitcham Junction, using the same route via Loughborough Junction

This will not only provide Sutton with a wider variety of destinations, but will connect Sutton onto the Tube Map properly as an accessible Overground location. Furthermore, connections to Crossrail 2 at Clapham and Wimbledon (and Dalston, potentially), as well as Elizabeth Line and HS2 connections at Old Oak Common would be fantastic. A connection onto the Victoria Line at Brixton, whilst not perfect, can supplement Victoria. It's not perfect, but it's what 4am brain thought, so let me know what might work! Also, with both Lioness and Mildmay Line services on the line, it will give the illusion of increased service, which might make these stations more attractive to travellers.

I honestly think the existing connections do the job much more easily; what would really help the intyermediate stations on the loop would be to implement the original 4 trains per hour plan, which was ironically scuppered by the politicians in the Sutton area who wanted their service running through the core instead of terminating at Blackfriars - 2tph for the loop via Blackfriars works; 4tph doesn't... I suppose it might be possible to have the existing 2tph overlaid with a 2tph that terminates at Blackfriars; that bwould be by far the easiest way of boosting the service on the loop.

 

[Magdalia]

Since the Sutton Loop Thameslink services are so unpopular

What is your evidence for this?

The statistics show that in 2023/24 Sutton had 62k journeys to Farringdon, 51k to Blackfriars, 44k to City Thameslink and 42k to St Pancras. Together that's about 200k journeys, which is more than London Bridge.

the politicians in the Sutton area who wanted their service running through the core instead of terminating at Blackfriars

The statistics show why.

The flows at Streatham are even bigger: 117k journeys to Farringdon, 110k to Blackfriars, 67k to City Thameslink and 66k to St Pancras.

The Sutton loop Thameslink service won't be disappearing.

 

[andreading]

I used to use this regularly between Wimbledon and Sutton. It lost out to the slower 164 bus which was more frequent and has level access. So the first need is level access to all the Wimbledon Loop stations.

Sutton Council wanted to preserve cross London travel which the GLA and TFL all recognise improves access to jobs for residents and access to good employees for local employers. If Crossrail 2 proceeds it would have left Sutton without Thameslink as the only remaining borough without cross London rail travel. Compare it with Croydon with Thameslink and East London Overground services and from time to time West London line services or Wimbledon with northern Line, District Line and Thames Link and possibly Crossrail 2.

Secondly a 4 TPH service would help. This could be met by running all 4 trains from the Thameslink Core via Mitcham to Sutton and then onto Wimbledon and back to Blackfriars terminating platforms. This would mean people from the Merton stations would simply get off a train at Streatham and wait 7.5 minutes for the next train through the core. This doesn't increase conflict at Blackfriars.

If the loop doesn't justify 4tph each way ultimately 2 trains per hour could go to Epsom. Other options for the Sutton terminators of even East London Overground services cause more conflict at Sutton as they need to cross the station and would suffer the same delays that the local Epsom trains suffer.

 

[swt_passenger]

[…]
I suppose it might be possible to have the existing 2tph overlaid with a 2tph that terminates at Blackfriars; that bwould be by far the easiest way of boosting the service on the loop.

That was roughly the purpose of the extended SN London Bridge to Blackfriars via Sutton service that made it into the 2018 GTR timetable consultation, although it was going to be peak time only. Of course after 2000 it never happened. I think a pre-requisite was the full planned 24 tph Thameslink service, that would have run more ex-SE services through the core and freed up capacity in Blackfriars bays.

 

[MarkyT]

An alternative idea is to break the loop and add Wimbledon - Sutton to Crossrail 2 (if it ever gets built) with a new terminus at Sutton. This would be in place of the Hampton Court branch proposed previously which would thus remain served by SWR (or future equiv.) Waterloo trains only. That would make 4x south western CR2 branches in all which could be split equally with 6 tph on each combining to make 24 in the central core. The inner suburban Thameslink service would be split between a Sutton branch and another going to Twickenham. Sutton would either need a new north bay for the former, or it might be better to run them through, stopping at the main line platforms instead, then turning back in the oft-mooted Cheam centre reversing facility, constructed in the very generous wideway between the remaining through platform tracks. The north side of the Waterloo Kingston Loop via the Windsors might also survive, connected to Kingston by means of terminators reversing in the bay there.

For those travelling from stations between Sutton and Wimbledon this would represent a dramatic service improvement in both frequency and journey time to Central London. It could offer a very attractive alternative to many who currently walk, cycle or bus to Morden for the Northern Line, so could offer real relief to NL overcrowding, especially for customers who join closer to the centre. The Thameslink extension to Kingston and Twickenham would improve connections across south London. By avoiding the CR2 Hampton Court branch, there is more opportunity for segregation from South Western Main Slow services, so junctions overall might be simpler or even not required at all in some places. There would likely need to be more complexity in grade separation around Wimbledon however to segregate the various flows as much as possible and allow shared running with Thameslink instead.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

An alternative idea is to break the loop and add Wimbledon - Sutton to Crossrail 2 (if it ever gets built) with a new terminus at Sutton. This would be in place of the Hampton Court branch proposed previously which would thus remain served by SWR (or future equiv.) Waterloo trains only. That would make 4x south western CR2 branches in all which could be split equally with 6 tph on each combining to make 24 in the central core. The inner suburban Thameslink service would be split between a Sutton branch and another going to Twickenham. Sutton would either need a new north bay for the former, or it might be better to run them through, stopping at the main line platforms instead, then turning back in the oft-mooted Cheam centre reversing facility, constructed in the very generous wideway between the remaining through platform tracks. The north side of the Waterloo Kingston Loop via the Windsors might also survive, connected to Kingston by means of terminators reversing in the bay there.

For those travelling from stations between Sutton and Wimbledon this would represent a dramatic service improvement in both frequency and journey time to Central London. It could offer a very attractive alternative to many who currently walk, cycle or bus to Morden for the Northern Line, so could offer real relief to NL overcrowding, especially for customers who join closer to the centre. The Thameslink extension to Kingston and Twickenham would improve connections across south London. By avoiding the CR2 Hampton Court branch, there is more opportunity for segregation from South Western Main Slow services, so junctions overall might be simpler or even not required at all in some places. There would likely need to be more complexity in grade separation around Wimbledon however to segregate the various flows as much as possible and allow shared running with Thameslink instead.
View attachment 174354

Yes I've always wondered about sending the trains via CR2 as well.

 

[cle]

It's definitely an option. Shepperton is also low traffic (and the long way round) - but really is the Kingston service.

With a better service, it might attract more users - but I suspect, some cannibalization from the Worcester Park line. And Sutton would need fairly big civils.

Frankly, CR2 would need tons of development at main stations. And Wimbledon town centre should look like Blade Runner...

The issue is, it runs to largely rail-heavy areas of SW London / Surrey already - i.e. I don't see tons of modal shift, or net new users - more the same folks on different trains. So development potential would be very welcome - Kingston town centre is another.

 

[Belperpete]

The more you integrate Central and SW services, the greater the risk of disruption on one affecting the other.

If you want to alleviate overcrowding on the Northern line, how about reopening the Merton Abbey loop? That would help more than running to Twickenham.

 

[Bald Rick]

There would likely need to be more complexity in grade separation around Wimbledon however to segregate the various flows as much as possible and allow shared running with Thameslink instead.

That’s putting it mildly! Personally I cant see how it can be done.

 

[MarkyT]

That’s putting it mildly! Personally I cant see how it can be done.

Here's my suggestion. I'm assuming a separate CR2/TL pair on the south side of the SWML to New Malden with both tracks passing through the existing double track bridge under the main line to Kingston west thereof. Clearly massive works at New Malden and at Raynes Park for the Epsom/Chessington divergence.

 

[JGurney]

The inner suburban Thameslink service would be split between a Sutton branch and another going to Twickenham. ..... The Thameslink extension to Kingston and Twickenham would improve connections across south London.
View attachment 174354

I suspect such an arrangement would result in a very large increase in the numbers of passengers changing trains at Twickenham. Are you envisaging a cross-platform connection in both directions? If not there would be a major increase in use of the stairs and lifts.

 

[Bald Rick]

Here's my suggestion.

All the Crossrail 2 designs have 4 Crossrail 2 platforms at Wimbledon…

 

[cle]

All the Crossrail 2 designs have 4 Crossrail 2 platforms at Wimbledon…

Are those underground?

Do any have a new Tramlink station / solution? Re at least getting to two platforms for Sutton/TL?

 

[30907]

Small detail, surely CR2 going towards London would be on the N side of the SWML?

 

[MarkyT]

All the Crossrail 2 designs have 4 Crossrail 2 platforms at Wimbledon…

Are those underground?

Do any have a new Tramlink station / solution? Re at least getting to two platforms for Sutton/TL?

Proposals included many trains reversing back into the core at Wimbledon. Up to half the service ISTR, so two dedicated platforms for reversal in the middle would make sense. It's not unlike the EL situation at Paddington, but Crossrail 1 didn't provide additional platforms there, proposing a novel auto reverse feature via sidings to the west instead. For CR2, I'd push all services through to the west of Wimbledon, not necessarily to the extremities of each branch, especially Shepperton which might have a short turnback for a proportion of its frequency. Paddington auto reverse on EL demonstrates that turnbacks don't necessarily need dedicated platforms, especially expensive underground ones, although planners may have figured that if they needed to demolish the shopping centre for their new station trench and the site was large enough, they might as well build more platforms down there.

Small detail, surely CR2 going towards London would be on the N side of the SWML?

I propose a third independent CR2/TL pair to the south of the formation as far as New Malden. In some places the existing lines might slew north a little to enable that, especially west of Raynes Park where some spare width seems available within the fenceline for a distance. The station at New Malden has space availble for remodelling formerly occupied by a central fast line island, and the the current down flyunder line has an unused second track alignment alongside, including sufficient space through the bridge span under the main line. All my CR2 trains would be turning towards Kingston here so there'd be no need to interface with the up main slow side at all.

Here's a work in progress including extensive junction and station work at Raynes Park. A new set of high level platforms would fly over the down main slow facility. I've retained the ability for SWR trains to get from slow lines to Epsom and beyond.

 

[swt_passenger]

Are those underground?

Do any have a new Tramlink station / solution? Re at least getting to two platforms for Sutton/TL?

The CR2 Wimbledon plans removed Tramlink from the station, it would have been an external interchange.
(I suppose it would at least remove the long running criticisms of Tram touching in and out).
There were also 6 rail platforms, 4 for SW and 2 for TL routes.

There’s a CR2 summary pdf here:

https://crossrail2.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Wimbledon.pdf

 

[cle]

Is turning half of the services at Wimbledon a bit damning? Same for Tottenham Hale or wherever at the top end. Shows that maybe a tube line is really the need.

I would much rather push higher frequencies out to the extremities and increase rail use from further out. And build more housing. Like 8tph+ to Epsom, with 4tph to Guildford and 2-4tph to Dorking/Horsham - and some faster skip patterns.

4tph to Sutton (loop) would help this, but it's all quite low density. There are hardly 1.5m users on the whole route (excluding Wimbledon and Sutton) - so it's barely viable.

 

[MarkyT]

Is turning half of the services at Wimbledon a bit damning? Same for Tottenham Hale or wherever at the top end. Shows that maybe a tube line is really the need.

I would much rather push higher frequencies out to the extremities and increase rail use from further out. And build more housing. Like 8tph+ to Epsom, with 4tph to Guildford and 2-4tph to Dorking/Horsham - and some faster skip patterns.

4tph to Sutton (loop) would help this, but it's all quite low density. There are hardly 1.5m users on the whole route (excluding Wimbledon and Sutton) - so it's barely viable.

I don't agree with extending beyond Sutton and Epsom, but I think greater segregation from SWR on the mainline could allow a more tube-like service further out to multiple branches. Use of the current loop service won't be a good indicator of future demand as a CR2 branch. As a direct route to Central London, service would be completely transformed from a slow meander around south London trying to tick off as many flat junctions as possible to an express 'tube' line direct to central London. I'm sure many travellers going into the centre change for faster trains at Wimbledon or Sutton today. Many others from the same areas likely use other transport to get to the main lines, or the Northern Line at Morden.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Shows that maybe a tube line is really the need

I've wondered that.

 

[Bald Rick]

Proposals included many trains reversing back into the core at Wimbledon. Up to half the service ISTR, so two dedicated platforms for reversal in the middle would make sense. It's not unlike the EL situation at Paddington, but Crossrail 1 didn't provide additional platforms there, proposing a novel auto reverse feature via sidings to the west instead. For CR2, I'd push all services through to the west of Wimbledon, not necessarily to the extremities of each branch, especially Shepperton which might have a short turnback for a proportion of its frequency. Paddington auto reverse on EL demonstrates that turnbacks don't necessarily need dedicated platforms, especially expensive underground ones, although planners may have figured that if they needed to demolish the shopping centre for their new station trench and the site was large enough, they might as well build more platforms down there.

I propose a third independent CR2/TL pair to the south of the formation as far as New Malden. In some places the existing lines might slew north a little to enable that, especially west of Raynes Park where some spare width seems available within the fenceline for a distance. The station at New Malden has space availble for remodelling formerly occupied by a central fast line island, and the the current down flyunder line has an unused second track alignment alongside, including sufficient space through the bridge span under the main line. All my CR2 trains would be turning towards Kingston here so there'd be no need to interface with the up main slow side at all.

Here's a work in progress including extensive junction and station work at Raynes Park. A new set of high level platforms would fly over the down main slow facility. I've retained the ability for SWR trains to get from slow lines to Epsom and beyond.

View attachment 174396

That plan means demolishing a whole load of Raynes Park as well as Wimbledon. Don’t forget you need near level, near straight platforms that are 250m long and wide enough for the passenger numbers expected to use them. The Crossrail 2 plans had new ‘Crossrail2’ lines on the outside of the current layout from New Malden to Wimbledon, with both lines diving into the tunnel between Raynes Park and Wimbledon, and a 4 platform station below ground level at Wimbledon (with various options how that might be achieved).

 

[cle]

I don't agree with extending beyond Sutton and Epsom, but I think greater segregation from SWR on the mainline could allow a more tube-like service further out to multiple branches. Use of the current loop service won't be a good indicator of future demand as a CR2 branch. As a direct route to Central London, service would be completely transformed from a slow meander around south London trying to tick off as many flat junctions as possible to an express 'tube' line direct to central London. I'm sure many travellers going into the centre change for faster trains at Wimbledon or Sutton today. Many others from the same areas likely use other transport to get to the main lines, or the Northern Line at Morden.

So you would have both legacy SWR and CR2 running via Worcester Park?

I think everything through Raynes Park should be CR2, and doubled in frequency. Add Shepperton at 4tph and be done. Stragglers turn at Wimbledon or Epsom.
Appreciate that it goes to Guildford and Dorking right now (Horsham is Victoria) - but those aren't worse than Reading on Crossrail, and they are slow services for interim stops, vs Guildford<>London traffic. Dorking doesn't have fasts either.

It does raise the question of whether the mid distance services would be enough frequency - i.e. today's 2tph Basingstoke, 2tph Alton... some Guildford/Portsmouth slows... you'd want to maybe add Hampton Court here as it can be done neatly - and it's basically a Surbiton fast shuttle. But you are still with a lot of frequency to play with, also on the fasts.

 

[MarkyT]

So you would have both legacy SWR and CR2 running via Worcester Park?

Chessington South trains would be replaced entirely by CR2, leaving SWR Dorkings and Guildfords, combined at 30m intervals off-peak currently. Maybe intermediate stops Raynes Park - Epsom might be removed on these, though maximum throughput requires similar timings, so the savings might not be great. Epsom's layout needs revising to handle CR2 terminators from Raynes Park with less conflict.

I think everything through Raynes Park should be CR2, and doubled in frequency. Add Shepperton at 4tph and be done. Stragglers turn at Wimbledon or Epsom.
Appreciate that it goes to Guildford and Dorking right now (Horsham is Victoria) - but those aren't worse than Reading on Crossrail, and they are slow services for interim stops, vs Guildford<>London traffic. Dorking doesn't have fasts either.

With the flat junctions and interworking with Southern, it's arguably a more complex route than Reading EL though, so perhaps less resilient. An alternative might be to transfer all these SWR services to Southern and divert them from Epsom into Victoria or London Bridge rather than Waterloo. I can't see that being acceptable, as it's a very long-standing service pattern, and I don't know if they could be pathed.

 

[Magdalia]

I make occasional journeys from the Fens to the Sutton/Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking area, so I have some familiarity with the service.

I'm also old enough to regard Crossrail 2 as an irrelevance, it won't be built in my lifetime.

There are some important "where we are now" factors to be taken into account.

• at Epsom and Leatherhead, there are more than twice as many journeys to Waterloo than any other destination
• Worcester Park, Stoneleigh and Ewell West are only served by the Waterloo-Dorking and Waterloo-Guildford 1tph services, giving them a 2tph service, those services can't be taken away without replacement
• the track layout at Epsom is very constrained, with the Wimbledon and Sutton routes having dedicated platforms, but still with conflicting movements at the Sutton/Wimbledon end of the station
• the track layout at Sutton is also very constrained, and could only be altered significantly with extensive tunnelling

The two things that I'd like to see, while I'm still able to travel, are:

• linking the London Bridge-Epsom service into Thameslink, and possibly extending it to Dorking
• decent connections at Wimbledon between Thameslink and the South Western Main Line to Woking and beyond

It would be nice to find a way to do these without the need for lots of new infrastructure.

 

[MarkyT]

That plan means demolishing a whole load of Raynes Park as well as Wimbledon. Don’t forget you need near level, near straight platforms that are 250m long and wide enough for the passenger numbers expected to use them. The Crossrail 2 plans had new ‘Crossrail2’ lines on the outside of the current layout from New Malden to Wimbledon, with both lines diving into the tunnel between Raynes Park and Wimbledon, and a 4 platform station below ground level at Wimbledon (with various options how that might be achieved).

Here's an alternative arrangement at Raynes Park with the CR2 island platform to the east of the existing station.

It looks like this on aerial photograpy. CR2 tracks shown yellow. Note the tightest curvature is ~500m radius and the CR2 ramp climbing over the Epsom branch is around 250m long. The ramp gradient is helped by the branch falling away from the main line. A new curve (light blue) and platfrom is provided for SWR trains joining the Epsom lines, relocated to make room for the CR2 tracks. I managed to avoid the ECR and substation! Little demolition required outside the light industrial/commercial yard area between the branch tracks. Some road junction alterations required near Carters Bridge on the A298 to make room for the new railway alongside.

 

[cle]

I make occasional journeys from the Fens to the Sutton/Epsom/Leatherhead/Dorking area, so I have some familiarity with the service.

I'm also old enough to regard Crossrail 2 as an irrelevance, it won't be built in my lifetime.

There are some important "where we are now" factors to be taken into account.

• at Epsom and Leatherhead, there are more than twice as many journeys to Waterloo than any other destination
• Worcester Park, Stoneleigh and Ewell West are only served by the Waterloo-Dorking and Waterloo-Guildford 1tph services, giving them a 2tph service, those services can't be taken away without replacement
• the track layout at Epsom is very constrained, with the Wimbledon and Sutton routes having dedicated platforms, but still with conflicting movements at the Sutton/Wimbledon end of the station
• the track layout at Sutton is also very constrained, and could only be altered significantly with extensive tunnelling

The two things that I'd like to see, while I'm still able to travel, are:

• linking the London Bridge-Epsom service into Thameslink, and possibly extending it to Dorking
• decent connections at Wimbledon between Thameslink and the South Western Main Line to Woking and beyond

It would be nice to find a way to do these without the need for lots of new infrastructure.

Agree that the Wimbledon-Epsom route is high traffic and important - and requires more frequency. Also that Epsom etc users prefer the Waterloo services - which get them to Clapham (for Victoria) - and notably, also offer Vauxhall for Vic line to Oxford Circus etc. Wimbledon also has a lot of jobs and other connections.

I would prefer to separate the routes also, and agree re LB/Epsom going to Thameslink. A platform 5 at Epsom (possible?) would help - even a side - to turn services towards Wimbledon - or to shift things over and enable a middle road (P3?) as dedicated for turning services to either Victoria or LB.... with more 'regional' through services running to Waterloo/CR2.

 

[Bald Rick]

Here's an alternative arrangement at Raynes Park with the CR2 island platform to the east of the existing station.
View attachment 174531
It looks like this on aerial photograpy. CR2 tracks shown yellow. Note the tightest curvature is ~500m radius and the CR2 ramp climbing over the Epsom branch is around 250m long. The ramp gradient is helped by the branch falling away from the main line. A new curve (light blue) and platfrom is provided for SWR trains joining the Epsom lines, relocated to make room for the CR2 tracks. I managed to avoid the ECR and substation! Little demolition required outside the light industrial/commercial yard area between the branch tracks. Some road junction alterations required near Carters Bridge on the A298 to make room for the new railway alongside.
View attachment 174532

IIRC the plan was to move the whole station east and have two islands, and re do the dive under. The current platforms are horribly substandard in just about every respect.

 

[MontyP]

Here's an alternative arrangement at Raynes Park with the CR2 island platform to the east of the existing station.
View attachment 174531
It looks like this on aerial photograpy. CR2 tracks shown yellow. Note the tightest curvature is ~500m radius and the CR2 ramp climbing over the Epsom branch is around 250m long. The ramp gradient is helped by the branch falling away from the main line. A new curve (light blue) and platfrom is provided for SWR trains joining the Epsom lines, relocated to make room for the CR2 tracks. I managed to avoid the ECR and substation! Little demolition required outside the light industrial/commercial yard area between the branch tracks. Some road junction alterations required near Carters Bridge on the A298 to make room for the new railway alongside.
View attachment 174532

Are the yellow lines above ground? If so, then in the bottom left of your map you are putting new lines through West Wimbledon Primary School as well as the retail units alongside Bushey Road and the golf driving range on the west of the A3. You also need to get it across the A3 which is coming down from an elevated flyover at that point ( to get it over the existing lines). Bushey Road is also on a flyover so all a lot more complicated than it looks from Google Maps. I thought that there was room to put extra lines alongside the existing tracks between Raynes Park and New Malden?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I thought that there was room to put extra lines alongside the existing tracks between Raynes Park and New Malden?

There is - but it's on the north side of the existing tracks, but I don't think the existing tracks can just be shifted over because the space only goes so far before suddenly running out.

There is no easy solution to anything on this thread without some major civil engineering somewhere or the other.

 

[MarkyT]

Are the yellow lines above ground? If so, then in the bottom left of your map you are putting new lines through West Wimbledon Primary School as well as the retail units alongside Bushey Road and the golf driving range on the west of the A3. You also need to get it across the A3 which is coming down from an elevated flyover at that point ( to get it over the existing lines). Bushey Road is also on a flyover so all a lot more complicated than it looks from Google Maps. I thought that there was room to put extra lines alongside the existing tracks between Raynes Park and New Malden?

I'd assumed most of the route would be on viaduct. It would cut across the corner of the school yard and the front parking lots of the retail units. The golf centre is a significant obstacle I agree. All commercial though so no residential demolition required. In order to avoid the buildings of the above I placed the new alignment close to Bushey Rd. That would require road junction changes in the vicinity.