New Frieghtliner Locos?

[danfitz123]

I was talking to a frieghtliner driver at crewe today, he said that the class 90's were sheds and are only good for scrap. I later found out that his had broken down and he had been waiting for a 66 to haul it away for 3 hours. Does anyone think that Frieghtliner need new electric Locos.

 

[generalvegitable]

not just freightliner, the entire country needs a new class of electric loco in my opinion

 

[danfitz123]

not just freightliner, the entire country needs a new class of electric loco in my opinion

I quite like the class 90's though..... dont know why?????

 

[rail-britain]

If the Class 90 locos had been maintained correctly they would be fine
However even from new they were pigs, they were useless on the sleepers often crawling up Beattock northbound unless a driver knew how to drive them!
As a result BR swapped back to Class 87 locos

The main issue with electric locos for freight trains is their "limited" use
Typically this means between major yards only, unlike a diesel-electric which can go "anywhere"

 

[87015]

I quite like the class 90's though..... dont know why?????

bias alert

Don't expect anyone else to know either, they are utter rubbish...

 

[First class]

The Class 92 is seriously under utilised I think.

At least put them on the sleepers!

I'm also quite surprised the likes of SWT don't have one on hire for rescue jobs (using the third rail).

 

[Royston Vasey]

The Class 92 is seriously under utilised I think.

At least put them on the sleepers!

I'm also quite surprised the likes of SWT don't have one on hire for rescue jobs (using the third rail).

Quite right, but being owned by EWS (a travesty IMHO) means it is only within the gift of EWS that they would be released to another operator or ROSCO.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm also quite surprised the likes of SWT don't have one on hire for rescue jobs (using the third rail).

I thought SWT had a few 73's for thunderbird duties?

Speaking of 73's I've always thought an AC version of them would be very suited to freight. With a panto providing primary source of power but with a smaller diesel allowing limited service away from the wires or as a back up to the electric power systems.

 

[generalvegitable]

Speaking of 73's I've always thought an AC version of them would be very suited to freight. With a panto providing primary source of power but with a smaller diesel allowing limited service away from the wires or as a back up to the electric power systems.

also what about adding 3rd rail shoes to them aswell as pantos?

 

[ainsworth74]

also what about adding 3rd rail shoes to them aswell as pantos?

I'm not an expert so didn't want to over-complicate my theoretical design, but if it is practical then deffinently give them 3rd rail shoes as well, then you have something that can go pretty much anywhere on the network.

 

[generalvegitable]

I'm not an expert so didn't want to over-complicate my theoretical design, but if it is practical then deffinently give them 3rd rail shoes as well, then you have something that can go pretty much anywhere on the network.

in theory it shouldn't over complicate the design too much, anyway if it works it could supersede the class 66 as the dominant freight loco in the UK

 

[ainsworth74]

anyway if it works it could supersede the class 66 as the dominant freight loco in the UK

Indeed especially if electrification spreads further. Now if only I was actually capable of designing such a thing

 

[90019]

in theory it shouldn't over complicate the design too much, anyway if it works it could supersede the class 66 as the dominant freight loco in the UK

It would overcomplicate it hugely.

You have to have all the stuff for running off AC, DC and diesel power.
Which is heavy and bulky stuff.

 

[Vulcan]

I quite like the class 90's though..... dont know why?????

Cos they look cool 8)

 

[WL113]

There is nothing wrong with the Class 90 locomotives when they are in healthy condition. Unfortunately, privatisation of the rail industry has seen the Class 90 availability decline.

It is a matter of some conjecture that there are now freight trains hauled for many miles on electrified lines by diesel locos, while AC electrics of proven reliability are being exported.

The AL6 and AL7 machines are beyond equal in UK electric loco design.

 

[sprinterguy]

Britain's Railways definitely do not need a new class of electric loco when the current electric fleets aren't even used to capacity.

I agree that the class 90s are good locos, but unfortunately their reliability is poor as many have languished in store exposed to the elements for long periods.

There is a similar story with a number of the class 92s, where the situation is worsened due to the technical complexity of the locos, meaning they don't take well to being left to rot.

Before thoughts turn to ordering fleets of new electric locos for freight work, it would be sensible to get full use out of the 90 and 92 fleets. Personally (and I'll get a titanium umbrella out before I say this, ready to dive under it to weather the tirade I'll likely get from Freightliner employees ), I imagine that a bit of joined up thinking would allow roughly half the fleet of 90s, say 90029-040 to join the examples currently employed by FL, to be taken on by Freightliner and replace the class 86s (8x86/6 pairs plus 86501 replaced by 12 class 90s, gives a reasonable bit of allowance), providing that the 90s were given a comprehensive overhaul beforehand. This would make far better use of the 90 fleet than it is currently seeing!
But I admit there's absolutely nothing wrong with the 86/6s anyway and using a pair of locos on heavy Freightliner trains gives a better tractive effort than using a single 90, so if it ain't broke don't fix it! Plus the 90s are of course the property of DB Schenker, so are highly unlikely to head in Freightliner's direction, so my idea is, at best, flawed. It's just a thought!

The Class 92 is seriously under utilised I think.

At least put them on the sleepers!

I'm also quite surprised the likes of SWT don't have one on hire for rescue jobs (using the third rail).

Out of curiosity, what speed is the Caledonian Sleeper scheduled for? I know it's not fast, so I imagine a 92 would be able to keep time. Problem with putting 92s on the Sleepers is that it then creates even more spare class 90s, so swings and roundabouts really.

Flippin' heck, can you imagine how expensive a class 92 would be to run as an EMU thunderbird! There's the cost of maintaining such a technologically complex beast (although perhaps some of the fancy systems installed for European operation could be stripped out if the loco was to be used solely in England as a Thunderbird?), the amount of power it would draw from the third rail, plus such a loco is VASTLY overpowered for just hauling EMUs around.

Having said that, I would love to see the class 92s being better used (Just can't think what to do with them )!

 

[captainbigun]

The 90s were flawed from new, basically an 87 with phase angle control done on the cheap. It's taken a long time for the NXEA examples to up their reliability and that has required numerous mods and a fair chunk of investment. There's further to go yet with several not having their full allocation of motors. Not a problem on their current route but would have been a problem on the WCML.

To make the 90s truly reliable it would require a 91 style HGR. The investment for that would be upwards of £1m per loco and that kind of money isn't about.

The 92s can technically run the sleeper, one example has had its ETS modified and standard jumpers fitted. Their top speed is 90 (with a mod) and their ability to put the vast power down is second to none. However, on the southern stretch of the WCML the sleepers need to be able to 100. They have an advisory limit of 80.

We've packed a perfectly capable fleet of locos off to the continent, criminal to be honest. Imagine how expensive a 66 will be to fill in 5-10 years time.

 

[sprinterguy]

Fully agree with all your comments there captainbigun, and thanks for that bit of info about the Sleepers.

 

[rail-britain]

Out of curiosity, what speed is the Caledonian Sleeper scheduled for? I know it's not fast, so I imagine a 92 would be able to keep time. Problem with putting 92s on the Sleepers is that it then creates even more spare class 90s, so swings and roundabouts really

Between Crewe and Euston the sleepers are timed at 100mph
Between Crewe and Carstairs the sleepers are timed for 80mph
Between Lancaster and Penrith the sleepers must not exceed 60mph

 

[danfitz123]

Cos they look cool 8)

exactly

 

[swt_passenger]

It would overcomplicate it hugely.

You have to have all the stuff for running off AC, DC and diesel power.
Which is heavy and bulky stuff.

Not necessarily. AC Electric traction nowadays always includes a DC link between the transformer and traction electronics, it's basically why all recent EMUs are dual voltage capable. Once you've added a pantograph and transformer for OHL use, the DC pick up shoes are effectively an optional extra.

 

[90019]

Not necessarily. AC Electric traction nowadays always includes a DC link between the transformer and traction electronics, it's basically why all recent EMUs are dual voltage capable. Once you've added a pantograph and transformer for OHL use, the DC pick up shoes are effectively an optional extra.

But after you get all the equipment for that in, you've got to try and shoehorn in a diesel as well.

 

[swt_passenger]

But after you get all the equipment for that in, you've got to try and shoehorn in a diesel as well.

However if you look at an existing modern Diesel Electric loco with AC traction (such as a Class 70), it's the transformer you'd have to shoehorn in - which they could probably do if the whole body width was used. The pantograph just goes on the roof...

 

[captainbigun]

Not necessarily. AC Electric traction nowadays always includes a DC link between the transformer and traction electronics, it's basically why all recent EMUs are dual voltage capable. Once you've added a pantograph and transformer for OHL use, the DC pick up shoes are effectively an optional extra.

Not quite. The transformer will step down the voltage to say 1000V. This will then feed a 4 quadrant controller (which will rectify under traction and invert under braking to allow re-gen). This then feeds the DC link (which supplies the inverters) which could also be fed via a direct DC supply.

The general point is correct though.