New for Old

[tbtc]

When was the last service to get “new for old” (i.e. brand new stock on a route replacing life expired stock on that same route which was withdrawn straight after)?

If the Merseyrail order does go through this will see brand new EMUs replacing the 507/508s, but there’s not been a lot of box-fresh trains replacing ones bound for scrapyards. Partly this is because we’ve had very few classes scrapped since privatisation, apart from slam-door stock on the old Southern Region.

Similarly, if the new Crossrail/ Thameslink EMUs are intended as being designed to run “whole life” on those routes, they’ll be withdrawn and directly replaced by new units in about 2050. But what historic examples are there?

For purposes of argument I’m not talking about cascades which saw new units on one line resulting in withdrawn units on another (e.g. ScotRail 170s on Central Belt services released 158s onto other lines to release 150s onto other lines to replace the 117s still in operation), only *direct* replacement.

 

[Lampshade]

450s/458s/444s replacing slammers, 323s replacing 303s/309s in Manchester, 333s replacing 308s in Yorkshire, 175s replacing 101s but then Wales got their hands on them

Voyagers and Pendolinos replacing LHCS if you call that life expired.

 

[jopsuk]

357s on the LTS and 360s on the GE allowed the retirement of slam door units

 

[NSE]

377/375 replacing the SC/SE slammers. 460's replacing that gatwick stock maybe? And the 357's on the c2c lines.

 

[northwichcat]

175s replacing 101s

And mk2 loco hauled sets.

but then Wales got their hands on them

Typical Welsh. 1/4 of the usual 175 routes were transferred to the expanded Wales franchise and they took all the 175s to go with that route (subleasing some back until 185s were delivered for North West routes.)

Voyagers and Pendolinos replacing LHCS if you call that life expired.

I think a lot of passengers would have said the old IC stock Virgin had was very much life expired.

 

[SprinterMan]

I think a lot of passengers would have said the old IC stock Virgin had was very much life expired.

But not life expired enough for NXEA! Amen!

 

[ainsworth74]

But not life expired enough for NXEA! Amen!

I don't know those Mk3s are in appalling condition (or at least the Mk3s I saw last week). They either need a heavy heavy refurb or replacement.

 

[northwichcat]

But not life expired enough for NXEA! Amen!

Virgin had mk2s as well, which NXEA has also withdrawn.

 

[tbtc]

175s replacing 101s

IIRC the 175s were introduced on services from Manchester (or Manchester Airport) to Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool/ North Wales.

Which of those were 101 run? I thought the 101s were used on "suburban" Manchester routes?

 

[tom1649]

IIRC the 175s were introduced on services from Manchester (or Manchester Airport) to Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool/ North Wales.

Which of those were 101 run? I thought the 101s were used on "suburban" Manchester routes?

None. Except one summer Saturday Manchester Piccadilly to Blackpool North service and the evening return which was booked for 2x101, and I once had the pleasure of riding on it back in 2000.

In addition to Manchester suburban services, the 101s were also used on the Llandudno - Blaenau Ffestiniog, Wrexham - Bidston and occasionally on Crewe - Bangor/Holyhead trains if there was a shortage of hauled stock/sprinters. They also made it as far as Sheffield on a regular basis, on Hope Valley workings.

 

[northwichcat]

IIRC the 175s were introduced on services from Manchester (or Manchester Airport) to Windermere/ Barrow/ Blackpool/ North Wales.

Which of those were 101 run? I thought the 101s were used on "suburban" Manchester routes?

There were also morning 175 workings on Chester-Altrincham-Manchester which did see 101s alongside 142s, 150s and 158s.

However, the 175s did directly replace the mk2 hauled stock. Although that made a temporary reappearance when FNW subleased 2x158s to TPE.

 

[tom1649]

There were also morning 175 workings on Chester-Altrincham-Manchester which did see 101s alongside 142s, 150s and 158s.

However, the 175s did directly replace the mk2 hauled stock. Although that made a temporary reappearance when FNW subleased 2x158s to TPE.

Ahh yes, I'd forgotten about the Chester-Altrincham-Manchester workings. There was regularly a 101 on the 17.xx ex Piccadilly which was too late for me to catch unfortunately.

Not only Mark 2 stock either, I definitely remember riding on a chocolate and cream Mark 1 in 1999.

 

[class156]

334s replaced the 303s on the Inverclyde lines.

 

[tom1649]

Did 170s replace the last Haymarket 117s?

 

[northwichcat]

Weren't some MML HSTs written off when they introduced 170s or where they bought back in to service?

 

[ChrisCooper]

Weren't some MML HSTs written off when they introduced 170s or where they bought back in to service?

No HSTs have been written off other than those involved in accidents. The excess MML sets were all moved to either FGW or GNER when the 9 car Meridiens arrived. The 170s were in addition to the HSTs which continued to operate as they had always done, just with a few less stops.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

MML started out with 13 HST sets IIRC, and I think still have around that number. The HSTs that have definately been passed on were the ex-Virgin HSTs that MML had received to run the 'Project Rio' services to Manchester (the power cars could be identified by different headlights).

The 9-car Meridians were ordered so a service to Leeds could operate, that never happened and they were stored for a while. The four car Meridians replaced the seventeen 170s which went on to Central Trains.

The only 'original' MML set to leave (since 96) that I know of was a set that went to EC recently.

 

[sprinterguy]

MML started out with 13 HST sets IIRC, and I think still have around that number. The HSTs that have definately been passed on were the ex-Virgin HSTs that MML had received to run the 'Project Rio' services to Manchester (the power cars could be identified by different headlights).

The 9-car Meridians were ordered so a service to Leeds could operate, that never happened and they were stored for a while. The four car Meridians replaced the seventeen 170s which went on to Central Trains.

The only 'original' MML set to leave (since 96) that I know of was a set that went to EC recently.

GNER also gained 43051/53/57/77 (43057 has since gone on to FGW) in around 2007, which were most defintely long term MML power cars, though I don't think that any MML carriage rakes moved over at the same time.

EMT had eleven HST sets at the start of the year, working 9 diagrams (Expected to reduce to seven at the end of the 7 car 222 refurb in late July, though I don't know if this has happened or not), which is probably down to ten sets now with the transfer of one to East Coast.

I know it's been reported on this forum in the past, but could anyone repeat for my benefit the two power cars and the numbers of any of the carriages in the rake that EC have gained from EMT?

 

[ChrisCooper]

According to the 2001 Platform 5 I have to hand MML at that time (before Meridiens were introduced, and before the Rio HSTs) had powercars 43043-061, 43064, 43066, 43072-077, 43081-083 and 43085. 53, 56, 74, 77 and 85 have gone, 53, 56 and 74 to FGW, 77 to EC and 85 to XC. EMT have gained 89, a former Virgin powercar. That's going by the latest 125 group fleetlist. I know 53 at least went via GNER (being re-numbered 253 before returning to 053). Can't be bothered to go through the coaching stock, but the TGSs were 44027, 44041, 44044, 44046-48, 44050-52, 44054, 44070-71, 44073, 44083 and 44085. According to The Junction 44050 is with EC, 44052 is with XC and 44083 is with FGW. Since each set needs a TGS, that suggests 3 full sets have gone compared to what MML orginally had. Sets have been on loan at various times too, including one now at EC.

 

[northwichcat]

What replaced the 141s? Was it the 308s that were replaced by the 333s a couple of years later?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

MML started out with 13 HST sets IIRC, and I think still have around that number. The HSTs that have definately been passed on were the ex-Virgin HSTs that MML had received to run the 'Project Rio' services to Manchester (the power cars could be identified by different headlights).

Virgin had a HST setfor a while that contained one MML livered vehicle within it.

 

[sprinterguy]

What replaced the 141s? Was it the 308s that were replaced by the 333s a couple of years later?

The 141s weren't replaced directly by the West Yorkshire electrification; 144s were the dominant train type on the Ilkley and Skipton lines before electrification AFAIK though the electrification of those lines probably did have a hand in allowing the 141s to be withdrawn.

 

[tbtc]

I suppose another future one will be when the new Crossrail units arrive and directly withdraw some 315s (from the Shenfield service)?

Or will 315s eke out a few years elsewhere afterwards? By that time NXEA (or, rather, the future Greater Anglia franchise) will have got a fair chunk of Great Northern stock (317s, 321s?), so have little need for old 315s?