New fleet for Southeastern Metro in future franchise / concession

[Esker-pades]

If/When any new fleet is introduced for Southeastern, it should be for an entire fleet replacement. There is an opportunity here that shouldn't be wasted.

707s are the most likely but can't replace Networkers for many reasons. 707s as an additional fleet poses various problems and a replacement for 376s feels like a solution looking for a problem.

I would like to see an entire fleet replacement for Southeastern in a similar way that 700s replaced the GTR fleet. Sadly, the franchise change will dictate what happens.

My emphasis.

What are the reasons that a reformed 6 car 707s could not replace some Networkers?

 

[Doomotron]

My emphasis.

What are the reasons that a reformed 6 car 707s could not replace some Networkers?

They're much slower off the line I believe, as they were built for Class 155 timings.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

More importantly, replacing (effectively) so few on the grand scheme of things means it’s not necessarily useful. Better potentially to send them elsewhere.

 

[HSTEd]

They're much slower off the line I believe, as they were built for Class 155 timings.

Slight pedant but I think you mean Class 455.

Not a breed of Super Sprinter of which only a handful of units survive.

 

[Mikey C]

The SE Metro services are messy enough with the mixture of 5 car 376s, 4 car 465s and 2 car 466s, especially as some of the latter haven't been fully modified and have to run with 465s permanently, without adding 707s to the mixture.

What it needs if a proper fleet to replace the lot, alongside works to create depot space

 

[ComUtoR]

What are the reasons that a reformed 6 car 707s could not replace some Networkers?

There isn't enough of them.

There are only 30x 707s but there are 147x 465s and 43x 466s. To replace the 376s with 707s; it will leave Southeasten 6 units short.

Capacity wise; I'm unsure. To replace a 4 car Networker with a 6 car 707 might sound like a good idea but how many services actually run as single 4 car units anymore. You also start to lose flexibility. With the 465s you can swap out units for maintenance, faults, and reforming into multiple. Seating might be an issue too. 707s (5 car) has 275 seats with 320 standing but Networkers have approx 330 seats in a 4 car. and 147 in a 2 car (numbers taken off wiki) Whatever replaces Networkers will need to be high density. Swapping out 4s for 6s also creates issue with storage. SE has a space issue. Many sidings are limited to 8 so you will either have 2 coaches of wasted space or 4 coaches too many.

Fleet wise, Southeastern is in a real mess. Although all rumors point towards 707s heading their way I don't believe they are suitable for the long term.

 

[Aictos]

To be fair if and its a big IF SouthEastern placed a order for 94 Class 700 types then that would replace 147 Class 465s and 43 Class 466s which would deliver benefits such as a smaller fleet to maintain and also drivers are familiar with the fleet so a refresher won't be difficult.

The Class 700 types would be all 8 cars.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

To be fair if and its a big IF SouthEastern placed a order for 94 Class 700 types then that would replace 147 Class 465s and 43 Class 466s which would deliver benefits such as a smaller fleet to maintain and also drivers are familiar with the fleet so a refresher won't be difficult.

The Class 700 types would be all 8 cars.

oh that’s clever...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

oh that’s clever...

Is it?!
That’s a horrible reduction in capacity for current 12 car 465s and the 10 car 465/466 combos and 376s

 

[brad465]

To be fair if and its a big IF SouthEastern placed a order for 94 Class 700 types then that would replace 147 Class 465s and 43 Class 466s which would deliver benefits such as a smaller fleet to maintain and also drivers are familiar with the fleet so a refresher won't be difficult.

The Class 700 types would be all 8 cars.

Southeastern rolling stock has to be able to alternate between routes of 8 car max and 12 car max, which is why it's most beneficial if their new stock can be of 4 car multiples rather than single 8 or 12 car units. Networkers going into Victoria and [peak time] Blackfriars tend to be limited to 8 due to intermediate station platform lengths, both from the Medway town stoppers and Herne Hill stoppers, while SDO isn't suitable for somewhere like Brixton where the southbound junction could be blocked. This is in contrast to London Bridge centred services where 12 car can manage everywhere except half of Charing X and some stabling at the likes of Slade Green (which hopefully would be overcome in a new franchise somehow).

 

[Aictos]

oh that’s clever...

Really, why the sarcastic response? Surely trains able to carry far more passengers both seated and standing is a must for the amount of passengers that use SouthEastern everyday without the wasted space that up to 4 cabs have.

And besides there still exists the Class 377/375s if one must really use the excuse of 4 car trains being a limiting factor.

 

[Aictos]

Southeastern rolling stock has to be able to alternate between routes of 8 car max and 12 car max, which is why it's most beneficial if their new stock can be of 4 car multiples rather than single 8 or 12 car units. Networkers going into Victoria and [peak time] Blackfriars tend to be limited to 8 due to intermediate station platform lengths, both from the Medway town stoppers and Herne Hill stoppers, while SDO isn't suitable for somewhere like Brixton where the southbound junction could be blocked. This is in contrast to London Bridge centred services where 12 car can manage everywhere except half of Charing X and some stabling at the likes of Slade Green (which hopefully would be overcome in a new franchise somehow).

And? Thameslink is a mix of 8 and 12 cars which see the Class 700 fleet turn up as a 8 car on a 12 car route eg Bedford to Brighton but also have 8 cars on a 8 car route eg St Albans to Sutton.

The core aside they didn't need the above excuse for a reason to retain the Class 319s, like it or not I firmly believe that the existing 8 car routes operated by SE would do so much better as fixed 8 car trains with the capacity to transport large amounts of people at any one time and use the Class 377s/375s to form up to 12 car services where needed.

 

[JonathanH]

the existing 8 car routes operated by SE would do so much better as fixed 8 car trains with the capacity to transport large amounts of people at any one time

Well that is fine if the 8 car units run on 8 car routes but there are existing 10 car routes as well and others that take 12.

There is no cause to put 375s / 377s on Metro services suitable for 12 car operation.

 

[Aictos]

Well that is fine if the 8 car units run on 8 car routes but there are existing 10 car routes as well and others that take 12.

There is no cause to put 375s / 377s on Metro services suitable for 12 car operation.

Class 376s and Class 707s can be used on the 10 car routes, Class 700s can be used on the 8 car routes.

Equally a mix of both 8 and 12 cars Class 700s with the cascaded 5 car Class 700s should be enough to displace Networkers to the scrap yard with the Class 3XXs being used on non metro routes.

 

[JamesRowden]

The South Eastern Route Study suggested that the long term solution to peak capacity on metro services should be trains with more standing capacity rather than more paths. Therefore the optimum time to replace the metro fleet might be the point at which peak metro capacity requires increasing. Using higher density stock would provide a capacity increase without requiring more stabling space.

 

[ABB125]

How about a mixed fleet of 4 and 8 car units? The 8 cars can be strengthened to 12 where necessary, and 4s can be used off peak where less capacity is needed, potentially reducing costs. Added benefit of no fixed 12 car sets to stable, or operate half empty during the day. Win win.

 

[Mikey C]

The South Eastern Route Study suggested that the long term solution to peak capacity on metro services should be trains with more standing capacity rather than more paths. Therefore the optimum time to replace the metro fleet might be the point at which peak metro capacity requires increasing. Using higher density stock would provide a capacity increase without requiring more stabling space.

Surely that's the short term solution, as it's the cheap and relatively quick way of cramming more people on

The long term solution involved spending billions on the infrastructure to increase capacity

 

[JamesRowden]

Surely that's the short term solution, as it's the cheap and relatively quick way of cramming more people on

The long term solution involved spending billions on the infrastructure to increase capacity

Making all Metro Services 12-Car with significant standing was suggested to meet Metro demand up to 2045.

The extra paths were suggested for the mainline services to avoid passengers needing to stand for a significant amount of time.

 

[MotCO]

How about a mixed fleet of 4 and 8 car units? The 8 cars can be strengthened to 12 where necessary, and 4s can be used off peak where less capacity is needed, potentially reducing costs. Added benefit of no fixed 12 car sets to stable, or operate half empty during the day. Win win.

I can imagine it would be difficult to roster such trains to ensure that the 4 and 8 car units ended up where they were wanted. For example, a 4+8 combination arriving at CHX may be split when it leaves (and then you need to make sure that the 4 is at the right end), so that a 4 goes to Hayes and an 8 goes to Dartford, but when they come back to CHX, the will arive at different times so cannot be combined again.

 

[VT 390]

There isn't enough of them.

There are only 30x 707s but there are 147x 465s and 43x 466s. To replace the 376s with 707s; it will leave Southeasten 6 units short.

Capacity wise; I'm unsure. To replace a 4 car Networker with a 6 car 707 might sound like a good idea but how many services actually run as single 4 car units anymore. You also start to lose flexibility. With the 465s you can swap out units for maintenance, faults, and reforming into multiple. Seating might be an issue too. 707s (5 car) has 275 seats with 320 standing but Networkers have approx 330 seats in a 4 car. and 147 in a 2 car (numbers taken off wiki) Whatever replaces Networkers will need to be high density. Swapping out 4s for 6s also creates issue with storage. SE has a space issue. Many sidings are limited to 8 so you will either have 2 coaches of wasted space or 4 coaches too many.

Fleet wise, Southeastern is in a real mess. Although all rumors point towards 707s heading their way I don't believe they are suitable for the long term.

Does the seating have to be high density (3+2) as Thameslink replaced 319's with 700's which have a lower density seating layout but much more standing room, the same has happened on Great Northern with 313's replaced with 717's. With a lower amount of seats off-peak most of the time there would be enough seats for everyone.

 

[ComUtoR]

Does the seating have to be high density (3+2) as Thameslink replaced 319's with 700's which have a lower density seating layout but much more standing room,

The 700s work so well in terms of capacity. I have no personal preference with seating layouts or seating Vs standing. The is a minimum standard for the space per passenger and I think that wider aisles work better; especially in terms of moving people through a train. I remember when 376s were introduced it took, and still does, a lot of convincing for passengers to accept that more standing room was preferable to more seats.

Both Metro and Mainline is packed in like the proverbial sardine tin. 'More capacity' must be achieved. There must be a mix of lengthening trains and increasing passenger density. There was a minimum specification in the Invitation to Tender and Franchise documents but I couldn't find them today. Its well know that there are platform constraints for Southeastern, which just adds another layer of complication.

Potentially could create a 6-Car with the same capacity as an existing 8 and that would certainly help out the Vics but doubling up to 12 starts to clash with the platform situation. 6+5 might help and tbh I find that 10cars work quite well and its only the peak where it tends to get a little squishy. SDO is pretty much a requirement as again, the platform arrangements are prohibitive. Woolwich Dockyard only fits an 11 and would unfortunately fall foul to modern standards. There are branch lines to also deal with where platforms are also way too short.

SE needs a major investment.

 

[thealm]

What about 458’s there early 00s and in good condition.

 

[brad465]

What about 458’s there early 00s and in good condition.

Might as well consider 707s which are as numerous and the same length, with the added benefit of being newer than 458s (for the record I don't approve of 707s coming, but not as much as I disapprove 458s doing so).

 

[Mikey C]

Southeastern isn't the dumping ground for unwanted stock displaced elsewhere by comprehensive renewals!

The 700/707/717 may theoretically have lots of standing space due to the 2+2 scrunched up against the walls of the train, but in practice, especially with men, and especially in winter with thick coats, the window seat person sprawls into the aisle seat, and the aisle seat sprawls into the aisle, resulting in people sitting in discomfort AND less "real" standing space. The 376 seats are more realistic

 

[JamesRowden]

Perhaps new stock would have an interior similar to 378s and S-Stock.

 

[VT 390]

Perhaps new stock would have an interior similar to 378s and S-Stock.

I wouldn't think that at the most they would have a mixture of seating similar to the Metropolitan Line S stock as some of the Southeastern Metro routes are quite long (such as Gravesend to Victoria).

 

[Energy]

I personally see the 377s going to Southern, they already have Southern interior don't they? The 376s probably as well going to Southern as these together can replace the 455s, 313s, and the majority of 171s (battery 377s are the plan). This gives Southern an all Electrostar fleet, something they seem to be wanting.

For Southeastern, the 375s will probably stay as they have just had an overhaul; they are only 20 years old, South Central/Southern said their similar 377s had a life span over 35-40 years; and they seem to serve Southeastern well. For a new fleet, AT100s for metro and AT200s to work with 375s would make a lot of sense but I could see Aventras as they already have a large fleet of Electrostars which Aventras are an evolution of.

There are 190 Networker sets in total (147x 465 and 43x 466): has there been a larger whole fleet replacement undertaken for a single TOC post-privatisation that this one will be?

The 465s and 466s total 674 carriages and the 376s total 180 carriages so if we are replacing the entire metro fleet it is 854 carriages. Its a large order but it is manageable and ones similar have been done before, such as:

• Southern have 862 cars of 377 although these were ordered over multiple batches.
• SWT introduced 733 Desiro cars and 180 458 cars, 913 total but these were 2 different types.
• SWR are introducing 750 new carriages in the form of class 701.

 

[brad465]

The 465s and 466s total 674 carriages and the 376s total 180 carriages so if we are replacing the entire metro fleet it is 854 carriages. Its a large order but it is manageable and ones similar have been done before, such as:

• Southern have 862 cars of 377 although these were ordered over multiple batches.
• SWT introduced 733 Desiro cars and 180 458 cars, 913 total but these were 2 different types.
• SWR are introducing 750 new carriages in the form of class 701.

Southeastern need to expand their fleet capacity realistically so I'd hope a new order would total more than 854 carriages; maybe around 900 would work with some old stabling yards reopened (like Chart Leacon). If they needed more than this, thinking more long term getting the Hayes line onto Bakerloo operations would be a way of "virtual" metro fleet expansion.

 

[Energy]

Southeastern need to expand their fleet capacity realistically so I'd hope a new order would total more than 854 carriages; maybe around 900 would work with some old stabling yards reopened (like Chart Leacon). If they needed more than this, thinking more long term getting the Hayes line onto Bakerloo operations would be a way of "virtual" metro fleet expansion.

Of course, I didn't factor in growth as I didn't know how many more units would be needed. I would go for 4 car units so that would be 225 4 car units, 250 if we include replacements for the 377s which look likely to go to Southern.

 

[Mikey C]

Southeastern need to expand their fleet capacity realistically so I'd hope a new order would total more than 854 carriages; maybe around 900 would work with some old stabling yards reopened (like Chart Leacon). If they needed more than this, thinking more long term getting the Hayes line onto Bakerloo operations would be a way of "virtual" metro fleet expansion.

Lots of new housing is being built in SE London and NW Kent, capacity increases are desperately needed